Obama health reform

[crackerjack]

The reason Hannan went on the program is that he thinks that the current reforms won't help them at all. Just because someone criticises a proposed solution for a problem doesn't mean they think there isn't a problem, or that the problem doesn't need solving. He didn't say they should 'stick with what they've got' -- he just advised them against copying the NHS.

So was he arguing against the US' current system, saying how it could be improved and how 40m uninsured in the wealthiest country on earth is an offence against decency? Or was he just saying "OMFG, NHS is like Stalin" (as it appeared in the clips, but which could of course have been edited)?

Hannan doesn't want anything like the American system introduced over here, never said he did. As for American health care being the worst in the world ever, as many Brits seem happy to describe it, it's not quite that simple. The number of uninsured people is terrible, as we all know, but for those who pay, the health care is better than over here (look at waiting times, cancer survival rates).

Contrary to what you say "many Brits seem happy to describe", I've never once heard anyone deny that the US system provides incredible care for those who can afford it. As you might expect, at double the cost of the NHS. It's the numbers uninsured, and the numbers underinsured, that make it such a disgrace.

 

[Mr. Tea]

And it's not as if there's no private health care in the UK, either. If you want to avoid NHS waiting lists and understaffed hospitals, you can go private, if you have the cash. So it's hardly as if the NHS is your only option, and it's hardly as if Obama is trying to (let along capable of, if he wanted to) abolish private health insurance in the US. Though from some of the demented rhetoric that's been spewed about the proposed reforms, you'd think this is exactly what's going to happen.

 

[scottdisco]

i watched the full Hannan FOX clip (full AFAIK; it was introduced, he spoke for a few, was endtroduced, and blah blah) and he was slagging off the NHS.
end of.

i personally am not getting into anything re a basic system having worst rates about treating cancer than, say, Japan, and i am personally not discussing the Obama health reforms (apologies, as i know that is the central point of this thread): i am getting into Hannan.

he has no idea.

as an aside (aside for me, as i have no interest in discussing US healthcare on this thread; i came on to slag off a Tory in my typically rude style, which i admit is a bit bloody cheeky), the standard of care and the standard of research ideas in some US hospitals is absolutely outstanding; it really does leave me in awe. i used to live in Chicago and know all about, for example, what goes on at Northwestern.
however, as Nomad and Padraig would rightly remind us, the lack of insurance for a great many Americans is disquieting, to say the least.

needless to say, the last paragraph from Cracker and the last post from Nom are having it and from the Hannan pov there really is nothing more to say, nothing at all.

 

[Mr. Tea]

The more I read about this, the more convinced I am that it's as much about heteronormativity and traditional "family values" as it is fiscal conservatism.

Yup, that's right, it's that pesky heteronormativity that's at the root of this whole terrible situation.

 

[crackerjack]

 

[swears]

Yup, that's right, it's that pesky heteronormativity that's at the root of this whole terrible situation.

Well, it's part of it isn't it? Those "fiscal conservatives" weren't too bothered about zillions in taxes being spent on large, unpredictable wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Yet, when a black president who is perceived as being liberal and cosmopolitan wants to implement health care reform, they're up in arms. Clinton was a fiscal conservative compared to Bush II, and they hated his guts almost as bad as they hate Obama.

 

[Mr. Tea]

OK, sure, but I think I'd just categorise that whole political mindset as Generic Right-Wing Arseholery. I'm sure a lot of them aren't too keen on Mexican food or the films of Woody Allen either, doesn't mean it has a whole lot to do with opposition to the health care bill.

 

[nomadthethird]

Yup, that's right, it's that pesky heteronormativity that's at the root of this whole terrible situation.

It's not "at the root" of this specific instance of one bill failing to be passed, of course--and that's not really what I said, if you actually read it. But heteronormativity and wounded white Euro male entitlement is a huge part of why the far right is resurging now all over the world, and particularly in the U.S. where there's really no governmental check-balance against the ideology of the "free market", which is about protecting the interests of power. The U.K. has it own charming little contingent of these people from what I've read, as well.

 

[nomadthethird]

OK, sure, but I think I'd just categorise that whole political mindset as Generic Right-Wing Arseholery. I'm sure a lot of them aren't too keen on Mexican food or the films of Woody Allen either, doesn't mean it has a whole lot to do with opposition to the health care bill.

Right. You might have actually see these assholes in action to believe it. I probably wouldn't believe it till I saw it with my own eyes. The way they frame this issue, quite literally, has very little to do with the practical issues surrounding health care--numbers, metrics, what works, what's best for the most people, etc. They succeeded in shouting down the public option by making loud hysterical slogans like "not in MY country", "what have they done to OUR country?", "no death panels!", and basically indicating that what they are going to miss most is their own position at the helm of American prosperity and power. It's super disturbing.

Look up Rush Limbaugh on youtube if you don't believe me.

 

[nomadthethird]

See also: Bill O'Reilly, Glenn Beck, Michelle Malkin, Sean Hannity

 

[scottdisco]

if you want to see an exercise in conflation par excellence, here is the original Dan Hannan interview (on YouTube) given on FOX news with the interviewer Sean Hannity.


did Hannan say what you think he said from precisely 3 minutes in?

apparently so.

to be fair, his smirk at the end re the PM crack is very nice.

 

[vimothy]

As you might expect, at double the cost of the NHS. It's the numbers uninsured, and the numbers underinsured, that make it such a disgrace.

Problem being, that at current rates of growth in costs, US healthcare spending is unsustainable -- that's a problem that will have to be solved, regardless of what side of the political divide you sit on. The necesssity of US healthcare reform is unrelated to the fact that it is being proposed by a democrat president, or oppposed by republican opposition figures.

 

[crackerjack]

Problem being, that at current rates of growth in costs, US healthcare spending is unsustainable -- that's a problem that will have to be solved, regardless of what side of the political divide you sit on. The necesssity of US healthcare reform is unrelated to the fact that it is being proposed by a democrat president, or oppposed by republican opposition figures.

This much is true, and is another reason why the general screechiness of the right throughout this debate (in which DH was an eager participant) is so contemptible. (Though something similar, but in reverse, probably applies here and would likely be met with our own version of same screeching).

 

[scottdisco]

This much is true, and is another reason why the general screechiness of the right throughout this debate (in which DH was an eager participant) is so contemptible. (Though something similar, but in reverse, probably applies here and would likely be met with our own version of same screeching).

indeed. i think i've done enough screeching on this thread for everybody here and the US right.. ...Vim, as ever, OTM

 

[swears]

You have to admire the audacity of the right. Here's what's actually happening. The US is the only major industrialised country that does not provide regular healthcare to all its citizens. Instead, they are required to provide for themselves – and 50 million people can't afford the insurance. As a result, 18,000 US citizens die every year needlessly, because they can't access the care they require. That's equivalent to six 9/11s, every year, year on year. Yet the Republicans have accused the Democrats who are trying to stop all this death by extending healthcare of being "killers" – and they have successfully managed to put them on the defensive.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...gion-and-the-triumph-of-unreason-1773994.html

 

[vimothy]

Trends in US consumption:

 

[Mr. Tea]

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...gion-and-the-triumph-of-unreason-1773994.html

Caption competition time, I think. Bonus points for a reference to Obama.

 

[nomadthethird]

How do they train themselves to be so impervious to reality? It begins, I suspect, with religion. They are taught from a young age that it is good to have "faith" – which is, by definition, a belief without any evidence to back it up. You don't have "faith" that Australia exists, or that fire burns: you have evidence. You only need "faith" to believe the untrue or unprovable. Indeed, they are taught that faith is the highest aspiration and most noble cause. Is it any surprise this then percolates into their political views? Faith-based thinking spreads and contaminates the rational.

The fucking fundies are successfully bringing this country further into ruin, it's getting worse everyday, and it annoys me to no end when people start apologizing for them and saying "they're not all bad", blah blah blah, etc. etc. "The new athiests are big meanies." No, the NAs have been predicting this for years. They've been trying to point out to the few remaining normal people that these loonies would only become increasingly delusional and powerful.

But I suppose, if you want power, that's what you have to be willing to do. Delude people.

 

[nomadthethird]

Barney Frank tells one of them off.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

So what on Earth is the point of it? The bill is over 1000 pages long, creates dozens of new govt agencies, spends billions of dollars and doesn't cover the other 50m people? The money would probably be better spent just paying the 50m people's premiums for a decade, or something.

well what's supposed to happen, AFAIU, is that it will become mandatory to have insurance. if you cannot pay, you will be subsidized (where the $ to come from, no one knows). if you can afford health insurance & choose not to get it, you'll be fined. all employers will also be required to provide insurance, w/similar subsidies & fines as needed. a huge problem is getting insurance companies to take people w/"pre-existing conditions" at rates that aren't prohibitively high, as is often the case now. this is one of several things a govt option would have taken care of.

that's what's supposed to happen, in some form. if it will...how effective it'll be, who knows.

people said some other interesting things but unfortunately I don't have the time to get into them right now.