Nice and ongoing terror attacks in W Europe

[hmg]

Interesting that there's no talk yet of any kind of 'manifesto', message or whatever. Beeb is saying "The so-called Islamic State group has said it was behind the attack", but those wankers would probably take credit for blowing up the Hindenburg and sinking the Titanic if you asked them.

If you haven't grasped their message by now... kill the unbelievers and apostates in the name of Allah, wherever they are by whatever means. It's not very complex and hardly needs restating every time. It's clearly an appealing message for people with 7th century mindsets living in 21st century societies, who get to end their personal history of misery and failure AND get their name all over the Western media as well as the IS hall of fame.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Lol, thanks for that, because until now I'd thought they were all about peace, love and universal brotherhood.

What I meant was, you now have a situation whereby some nutter with unresolved childhood bullying issues watches some crazy videos on the internet and thinks "I'll have a go at that and then my life, or at least my death, will finally mean something." Then he goes and does it, whatever it is, and someone in ISIS (or claiming to represent them, anyway) then says "Oh yeah, that was us." In contrast to an older model of jihadi terrorism, with organized cells actually under the command of leaders in Pakistan.

 

[droid]

What I meant was, you now have a situation whereby some nutter with unresolved childhood bullying issues watches some crazy videos on the internet and thinks "I'll have a go at that and then my life, or at least my death, will finally mean something."

Much closer to the definition of a spree killer in that sense.

 

[hmg]

Lol, thanks for that, because until now I'd thought they were all about peace, love and universal brotherhood.

What I meant was, you now have a situation whereby some nutter with unresolved childhood bullying issues watches some crazy videos on the internet and thinks "I'll have a go at that and then my life, or at least my death, will finally mean something." Then he goes and does it, whatever it is, and someone in ISIS then says "Oh yeah, that was us." In contrast to an older model of jihadi terrorism, with organized cells actually under the command of leaders in Pakistan.

That's all they need to do though. Effect verifies cause. We used to do the same. That's what the cenotaph is, a big post hoc justification for who knows what crazy evilry happened on the Western Front with flamethrowers and clubs.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Much closer to the definition of a spree killer in that sense.

Well yeah, I think there's a continuum between the non-ideological mass killer and "proper" (organized, planned, ideological) terrorism. Or at least, a hard distinction between the two is a false dichotomy.

 

[Mr. Tea]

The man named as the perp was British-born - no surprise there - but was 52, which puts him a clear generation older than your typical jihadi.

 

[baboon2004]

Well yeah, I think there's a continuum between the non-ideological mass killer and "proper" (organized, planned, ideological) terrorism. Or at least, a hard distinction between the two is a false dichotomy.

Yep, and that's always been true - ideology is all too often taken at face value as a simplistic substitute for the complex set of factors that would result in someone doing something like this.

(Not to mention the broader issue of the prevalence of Ba'athists among Isis top brass)

 

[...]

At the moment it seems that this "lone wolf" wasn't so "lone": they rarely are, but we'll see how it plays out.

Last bracketed point Baboon made is a very important one, actually, for a lot of complex but crucial reasons.

I still consider ideology a more important factor than mental health, though the latter cannot be disregarded. But it is also not the crucial explanation and certainly not a way to absolve motivations or motivators. That would be the comforting conclusion.

 

[Mr. Tea]

To reiterate the not-mutually-exclusive point I made above, I got really sick and tired of Facebook chat in the aftermath of the Jo Cox murder that was polarized between "Thomas Mair isn't a terrorist, he's mentally ill" and "Thomas Mair isn't mentally ill, he's a terrorist". As if being one precluded being the other. Ridiculous.

 

[Corpsey]

Hope all the LDN dissensers are okay.

Dismaying times

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

Hope all the LDN dissensers are okay.

Dismaying times

sad times. not what i wanted to wake up to.

this is prob the wrong time to say it, and by no means am i advocating more political/ideological terrorists, but these new terrorists are woefully crap in that sense

they are just nihilists, attaching themselves to radical extreme islamic militancy to find a narrative for their feelings/anger/hatred. and i think most of them do have mental health issues, which ofc makes them more 'vulnerable' or more likely to latch on to a narrative that makes them feel they have a legitimate cause, or motivation, to seek revenge on others for their own issues. (edit - just saw there has been some talk of that already).

also i am just pissed off that these terrorists are doing it during election time and are likely helping steer people towards the tories/ukip who ppl think will be Tough on Terrorism (or whatever). and im bored of news reporters insisting that these guys have wider links or were not acting alone. not sure if this helps people feel more scared or fits a more believable story, but they are prob just DIY terrorists. its disorganised terrorism, internet-democratised.

 

[Mr. Tea]

May has declared "enough is enough", whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean. Sounds a bit like the government kind of couldn't really be arsed tackling terrorism properly until now.

I'm skeptical that many people are going to swing towards the Tories because of this and the Manchester bombing, because we have a Tory government as it is and that hasn't stopped three fatal terror attacks in three months. In fact it's hard not to connect this with the slashing of police numbers.

 

[firefinga]

Let's assume the main motivation behind the islamists' terror attacks is the planned resurgence of the (Sunni) Abbaside Caliphate (and that's the motivation at least according to much of their propaganda for several decades now) then their "political" terror isn't unsuccessful - quite the opposite. They influnenced the general election in Spain 2004 (Madrid train bombings) to have the conservative government lose and thus have the socialists under Zapatero pull out troops from Iraq (and therefore easing the pressure on Islamist militants directly).

Clearly they ARE trying to influence the election in the UK at the moment, too - and it doesn't really matter who wins in the end - the Islamists win in any case: Tory - may - take a harder stance, which will reinforce their (=the Islamists) very useful "islamophobia"-Propaganda. Labour - may - stop supporting military operations in Syria/Northern Iraq - which will direclty help the IS troops.

 

[luka]

Clearly trying to influence it in what direction then lol

 

[luka]

Dont agree with tea btw. May has articulated people's anger 'enough is enough' used the word 'muslim' that's what a lot of people wanted itll be great for her.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Clearly trying to influence it in what direction then lol

Yeah I was about to say, you can't try and 'influence' something in two opposed directions at once.

Whether this will swing opinion towards or away from the Tories: I dunno, I guess it depends on how much faith you have in the general public's reasoning ability - and of course there's the standard disclaimer about social (and social media) bubbles and whatnot, so it would be rash to say this isn't going to make people swing to the right just because that isn't happening to people I know, so there's good reason not to be optimistic on that front.

Really though, I think the argument that militant Islamists are trying to bring about changes in government or government policy might be a decade or more out of date. As RDR says, these guys are nihilists, and it seems western Europe is just going to have to get used to this kind of terrorism because it's so uncorrelated with anything concrete happening anywhere in the world. There've been attacks in countries that took part in the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq and the overthrow of Gaddafi, and in countries that had nothing to do with any of that, it's happened in countries with authoritarian governments and in ultra-liberal countries (Sweden, FFS!) - basically any country with a substantial Muslim population.

 

[luka]

 

[firefinga]

this kind of terrorism because it's so uncorrelated with anything concrete happening anywhere in the world.

It's higly correlated, namely with the crushing of the IS- "Caliphate" right now.

 

[Mr. Tea]

It's higly correlated, namely with the crushing of the IS- "Caliphate" right now.

Then why have there been terror attacks by """ISIS""" in countries that are having nothing to do with the fight against actual ISIS, such as Belgium and Sweden?

And why haven't there been far more attacks in Russia, and any (AFAIK) in Iran?

 

[firefinga]

Then why have there been terror attacks by """ISIS""" in countries that are having nothing to do with the fight against actual ISIS, such as Belgium and Sweden?

Belgium and Sweden possibly motivated by a general dislike for the secular West, made easier as you said due to the fact of considerably big Mulsim populations. The repeated attacks in the UK and France very likely bc of direct military involvement.

St. Petersburg Bombing just happened a few weeks ago. And in Iran - it's a Shiite country.

Of course you can say they are nihilists, and there's no strategy behind it all. I just don't think it's all that random.