Wuhan Killer Sneeze (thanks Tea)
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- a grotesquely ugly freak ample cleavage bourgeois foodyism dunghill riddim fucking voodoo magic man jamaican voodoo gang from predator 2 linebaugh's balls ground into dust no no no no no no no no time is the true river that runs 'round hell wuhan ain't nuthing ta f' wit wuhan got you all in check
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Great argument, consider me convinced.
BTW, you still haven't explained why, if - per your posts here - the conditions are identical to March 2020 (i.e. high-virulence strains all over the place, an effectively unvaccinated populace, no masks, no travel restrictions, workplaces full of adults, schools full of kids) our hospitals aren't in an identical condition to March 2020 (i.e. bursting at the seams with critical covid cases).
You'll get no argument from me about putting proper ventilation in schools, offices and so on. Epidemiologists have been recommending that for years.
I can't say I'm signed up for general, permanent, public mask-wearing, though. It's weird and alienating, it can't possibly be good for children's psychological development, and is obviously a nightmare for deaf or hard-of-hearing people and a lot of ESOL speakers.
I literally have explained it, but you chose not to read it.
Now tell me again why we should ignore the entirety of medical literature on the subject and continue to cause population wide damage to health and huge amounts of excess deaths whilst allowing the vulnerable to die or face permanent lockdown, all because masks are 'weird' - yet another opinion you hold in common with your new comrades.
62,000 kids in the UK with long covid, probably tens of thousands more undiagnosed, record school absenteeism due to illness, huge surges in child hospitalisation from RSV and other relatively benign diseases, a doubling of childhood asthma, a pediatric hepatitis epidemic caused by covid, but we should be more concerned about 'children's psychological development'?
Kinda reminds me of something.
Kinda reminds me of something.
mixed_biscuits
_________________________
droid, this is Padraig level argumentation. You're just identifying an opinion with some people you don't like. Do you not know that there were RCTs on community mask use, and the benefits were negligible. The WHO has a laundry list of drawbacks, which disadvantages easily make them a net negative.
Can you find a single piece of investigative journalism uncovering this enormous wave of deadly covid? Or do you think that the media is complicit in ignoring this in their entirety.
P.S. do you wear a mask at home because that's where transmission is most likely, other than in health settings. Answer in a muffled voice note please.
Here is the WHO recommendations on masks:
Here is the CDC recommendations on masks:
Here is the NHS current recommendations on masks, after the removal of the mandate in May:
Here is the statement on that RCT review on masking, which caused so much reputational damage to Cochrane they had to issue this mea culpa:
And no, I have HEPA filters at home. I only use N95s when we have a confirmed case in the house - and guess, what? Last time it happened in August, they worked.
Now fuck off back to ignoreland.
Here is the CDC recommendations on masks:
Here is the NHS current recommendations on masks, after the removal of the mandate in May:
Here is the statement on that RCT review on masking, which caused so much reputational damage to Cochrane they had to issue this mea culpa:
And no, I have HEPA filters at home. I only use N95s when we have a confirmed case in the house - and guess, what? Last time it happened in August, they worked.
Now fuck off back to ignoreland.
mixed_biscuits
_________________________
What Tea and I were referring to was the balance of advantages and disadvantages. You've confirmed that there's no RCT evidence of advantage and ignored the disadvantages. Is your mask fit-tested by a professional? Are you and your wife cleanly shaven? There can't be any facial hair lifting the edge of the mask off your face. Is the seal duct-taped? Viruses are very small and will sneak through the teeniest gap.
Clearly something is wrong in your mitigation because people are still getting ill. If you think your mask is effective why do you only use it once there is a confirmed case? That's like putting your seatbelt on half way through a car accident.
Claiming that you have proof that your mask works because you didn't catch it that one time is not scientific.
Your approach is just slowing infection at best; you need to follow the irrigation protocol to minimise harm once you are infected.
P.S. Where is that article? There are thousands of newspapers.
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
Don't really want to get involved, and admit all these statistics that get thrown around here go right over my head, but I know from experience that putting masks on small children in classrooms all that time (here in Spain) was a terrible mistake. The fucking state of those of those soiled masks by the end of the day when I picked my son up from school for one thing. And not being able to see his teachers' or mates' faces - for what was it it, over a year?- was absolutely awful.
The idea that doing that prevented infection of anything is ridiculous.
The idea that doing that prevented infection of anything is ridiculous.
Benny, studies from the US show that 70% of all infections came from kids, and most of them would have caught it at school. That means that there were thousands of kids in Spain (and the UK) who caught covid at school, brought it home and killed a grandparent.
You should read this article, it outlines the risks kids face very clearly:
Why? Because it was unpleasant and uncomfortable? That may have been so, but there's a load of good studies which show that even less effective surgical and cloth masks were effective at preventing spread:
I am in partial agreement though. Mask mandates in schools should only ever have been a temporary measure, especially for younger kids. They should have been rapidly replaced by the same kind of air filtration systems they installed in the houses of parliament and the department of defence in 2020 and at Davos in 2023.
You should read this article, it outlines the risks kids face very clearly:
Children can also be directly affected. that 5 to 10% of children who become infected can develop long-term symptoms. Pereira et al also reported in the Journal of Pediatrics that 12-16% of children infected with Omicron had long COVID at 3 and 6 months post-infection. In total 24% of children who are hospitalized have persistent symptoms greater than 5 months.
Similar to adults, the virus strikes multiple systems in children. As many as 60% of children have subclinical systolic cardiac impairment after recovery from asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic COVID-19 (average follow-up of 148 days). During the pandemic, the incidence of Type I diabetes in children almost doubled in those with a COVID-19 diagnosis (28.5 cases per 100,000 versus 55.2 cases per 100,000). There is also a risk of developing the rare but dangerous Multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children (MIS-C).
There is mounting evidence concerning immune hypofunction. The large surges of RSV infections seen in the United States were also seen in Sweden, a country that enacted little public health interventions, such as masking, and kept kindergartens and primary schools open. The Public Health Agency of Sweden also reported unusually severe influenza cases, stating that cases have occurred in “people under the age of 18 without underlying disease or condition, have been very seriously ill with complications such as myocarditis or encephalitis. (translated)”
70% of COVID-19 Cases Transmitted By Children
COVID-19, schools, and children are sensitive topics. Some worry about transmission in schools, while others don't see it as a concern. Which is it?www.infectioncontroltoday.com
Why? Because it was unpleasant and uncomfortable? That may have been so, but there's a load of good studies which show that even less effective surgical and cloth masks were effective at preventing spread:
concentrations of airborne SARS-CoV-2 were, on average, 70% lower with mask mandates and 40% lower with air cleaners. The findings suggest that between 2 and 19 infections could be avoided while masks were mandated.
Masks and portable air cleaners reduced the spread of COVID-19 in schools, study shows
A new study shows that masking and portable air cleaners reduced the spread of the virus that causes COVID-19 in two Swiss schools.www.news-medical.net
Compared to optional masking, mandatory masking was associated with a 72% reduction of in-school COVID-19 cases.
Mandatory masking in schools reduced COVID-19 cases
Schools with mandatory masking during the Delta surge had less in-school transmission of SARS-CoV-2 than schools with optional or partial masking policies.www.nih.gov
The bottom line: Masking mandates were linked with significantly reduced numbers of Covid cases in schools.
Masks Cut Covid Spread in Schools, Study Finds
In a so-called natural experiment, two school districts in Boston maintained masking after mandates had been lifted in others, enabling a unique comparison.www.nytimes.com
This study found that schools which started the 2021-22 academic year without a mask mandate had 3.5 times the number of coronavirus outbreaks as in schools which started the year with universal masking. Another study found that from July 1, 2021, to September 4, 2021, schools without a universal masking requirement “experienced larger increases in pediatric COVID-19 case rates after the start of school compared with counties that had school mask requirements
Association Between K–12 School Mask...
This report describes Arizona school associated COVID-19 outbreaks higher in schools without mask requirements than in schools with mask requirements.www.cdc.gov
Schools that required universal masking for adults and students saw 72 percent fewer secondary infections—in which students infected with COVID-19 in the community spread the virus to others in school—than did schools that had no mask requirements or partial masking.
Mask Mandates Cut COVID-19 Spread in Schools, Studies Find
In one study, stricter mask policies reduced school infections by more than 70 percent during the delta wave.www.edweek.org
Molecular detection of airborne and human SARS-CoV-2 indicated sustained transmission in schools. Mask mandates were associated with greater reductions in aerosol concentrations than air cleaners and with lower transmission.
SARS-CoV-2 transmission with and without mask wearing or air cleaners in schools in Switzerland: A modeling study of epidemiological, environmental, and molecular data
Nicolas Banholzer and team use a variety of data to investigate the transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in two secondary schools in Switzerland in the presence and absence of mask wearing and air cleaners.journals.plos.org
I am in partial agreement though. Mask mandates in schools should only ever have been a temporary measure, especially for younger kids. They should have been rapidly replaced by the same kind of air filtration systems they installed in the houses of parliament and the department of defence in 2020 and at Davos in 2023.
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
Genuinely, thanks for going to the effort, and I know you'll probably just scoff, but I just can't with all these statistics, reports, graphs etc that you lot post in here. I may well be just too thick or impacient to understand them, but it seems to me people on both sides of the argument can always pull these things out to back up what they've already decided to believe. So I'm sceptical of all of it, don't claim to be sure of anything 100 percent and form opinions very tentatively.
Masking children was certainly unpleasant and uncomfortable, but also unhygienic in other ways. Having a bit of cloth trapping dirt, foodstuff etc against a child's face for hours on end is surely a breeding ground for germs for one. Plus small children are constantly touching their faces, pulling their masks down etc making the whole thing totally pointless anyway. You can't expect 6 year olds (or even adults in my experience) to wear a mask "properly", rendering them worse than useless.
I can appreciate that better ventilation in schools would have been an ideal measure in place of masking but totally unrealistic to implement.
And it's a question of proportionate response. A whole generation of children being unable to see each others or the teachers faces for over a year, plus many having to do classes from home, had a massive negative effect - personally I'd weigh that pretty heavily against the (not even clear) risks of not wearing them at all.
Masking children was certainly unpleasant and uncomfortable, but also unhygienic in other ways. Having a bit of cloth trapping dirt, foodstuff etc against a child's face for hours on end is surely a breeding ground for germs for one. Plus small children are constantly touching their faces, pulling their masks down etc making the whole thing totally pointless anyway. You can't expect 6 year olds (or even adults in my experience) to wear a mask "properly", rendering them worse than useless.
I can appreciate that better ventilation in schools would have been an ideal measure in place of masking but totally unrealistic to implement.
And it's a question of proportionate response. A whole generation of children being unable to see each others or the teachers faces for over a year, plus many having to do classes from home, had a massive negative effect - personally I'd weigh that pretty heavily against the (not even clear) risks of not wearing them at all.
OK, Ill sum it up. There is a vast preponderance of evidence to show that masks work, that kids transmit covid more than other groups because of schools) and can and do get very sick from covid.
You speak of a proportionate response and 'hygiene'. Covid has killed around 27 million people, is continuing to kill and mutate and has left 2-300 million+ people with some level of chronic illness.
Kids are still dying of covid, in the US last year it was fifth among all disease-related causes of death for 0-19 year olds; and first in deaths caused by infectious or respiratory diseases. Its also implicated in everything from a massive spike in childhood diabetes, TB and RSV, to deaths from Strep A, hepatitis etc.
Ventilation and filtration is not unrealistic in the slightest. The estimated cost here for every school in the country is €62 million. We fundraised for HEPA filters in my daughter's primary school in 2021 and we got every classroom done for about €3000, with an annual cost of about €400 to replace filters etc. The school went from having multiple cases every month to having about 2 a year.
I mentioned this here months ago - I dealt with someone whose 15 year old daughter caught covid in an unmasked, unventilated school and had a series of strokes shortly afterwards. Try telling her that wearing a mask is a disproportionate response to the disease that crippled her child.
Like, it strikes me, that even the possibility of having your brain cells fused together by an extremely contagious airborne virus weighs pretty heavily against pretty much anything else you could imagine - especially if we're worried about negative effects on children, but hey, what do I know?
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Safe for whom?
Ha ha
mixed_biscuits
_________________________
Not much. The fact that you yourself can't wear a mask on the regular yet you want to force children to wear them despite the manifest disadvantages (yes they do outweigh whatever negligible benefit they have) is telling.
Your vision is tunnel-visioned as always in that you can't think of any interventions other than masks and ventilation. Since your stuck with that selection why not drop the ineffective measure that no-one likes (even you) and that is as likely to be re-introduced as British rule of Zimbabwe, and focus on ventilation, which everyone agrees on and whose benefits are well-evidenced (RCTs!).
The main infection hazards in schools are the adult staff and presenteeism: they will come in despite being ill (especially now!) and when they have Covid they are far more infectious (infectiousness correlates with symptomaticity) than children are.
So basically since you've got the ventilation sorted you need to badger the school to introduce a Covid policy prohibiting symptomatic positive adults from coming in. This may need to be an informal arrangement as they are probably being directed to do the opposite officially.
mixed_biscuits
_________________________
Go at the start of the day and follow a nose and throat irrigation protocol after spending any significant period of time in a crowded indoor area.
I would imagine pools are well ventilated for other reasons and in a high-ceilinged room people's breath travels upwards because it's hotter.
Clinamenic
Binary & Tweed
There's a guy on twitter, Bob Watcher, who would make these ridiculously long threads detailing his safety calculations and why he is justified in not masking in x/y/z scenario. He eventually got covid, had a low blood pressure event in the shower (which is common) and smashed his face open in the fall. Im not gonna follow his example, but I can outline what you should be considering.
The official advice hidden in the small print of most public health authority guidelines is that you should wear an N95 indoors or in crowded areas when cases are high, and thats good advice.
But in the absence of proper testing, its become very difficult to say if cases are high. Since they shut down the ONS survey in March the only useful indicators we had left are test positivity and wastewater. Wales stopped wastewater testing in May (they have apparently just brought it back in, but theres no new reports yet). Test positivity in Wales atm is 11-14%, which means there's a fair amount of virus circulating. The WHO once said that anything over 5% meant that the virus was out of control.
The important thing to be cognisant of is that covid is airborne, spreads in the air like smoke and 40-60% of all infections are pre-symptomatic or asymptomatic. Now, chlorine kills the virus, so you wont catch it from the water, but imagine someone smoking in the dressing room. A pre or asymptomatic person is like someone smoking a single cigarette, someone with symptoms might be the equivalent of someone smoking a whole pack. Would you be able to smell the smoke if you were in there with them? How long would it take for the smell to clear the room? Do you trust other people not to go out in public when they're sick?
Sorry for the lack of a certainty, but the short answer is that it's impossible to say. It will depend on the time of day, how busy it is and how much risk you want to take. You might go every day for years and be completely fine or you could catch it off the receptionist on the first day. If you go when its nearly empty and wear a respirator until you get in the pool that will minimise your exposure.
Personally, when cases were very low in the summer I might have taken the chance, but for the foreseeable future it looks pretty risky. The wastewater data will tell us more once it recommences.