malelesbian

Femboyism IS feminism.
FACT is that the University of Virginia have strong evidence for reincarnation from other species into a human body. Sure, it's not very common but that's called a 'minority' and minorities are the most vulnerable members of our community.

Why does reincarnation matter? If I was a woman in a past like, that doesn't change my current identity in this life as a man.
Are you denying that there are associations between what you - in classical far-right style - consider empirically embedded ethnicity and ethnic cultural expression.

It's possible to contribute to an ethnicity's culture without being a member of that ethnicity. If a white person talks or acts Black, that doesn't make him Black. But obviously I do associate Black cultural expression with Black people. But expressing content contributory to an ethnic culture differs from identifying as a member of the relevant ethnicity. I, a feminine man, contribute to feminine culture, but that doesn't make me a woman. A person is a woman because they performs behaviors that the relevant gender norms count as definitive of women.

It takes some chutzpah to lend credence to other feelings of mismatch but not this one. Do you consider the client to be hopelessly deluded?

I mean...yes, yes I do. Your racial identity, again, depends on your parents' racial identities, not some private feeling. Also Sylvia Browne is a literal psychic. You tell me I don't support science, but at least I don't support anti-scientific nonsense like psychics!

Gender is the behaviours associated with the sexes. Animals DO have societies, some of which are notably better integrated than human societies. Animals can have culture with different practices found in distinct groups and with practices also transmitted through learning.
Ok, then give examples of non-human societies and cultures.

I think this is another one of your conservative tacks: that humans are qualitatively different, a religious mainstay.
I don't see why I should have to do biology in order to study sociology! Evolutionary psychology ignores the unique features specific to humans. Every species of animal is unique. IDK how a non-human animal could have a culture.

If gender can only be perceived internally on an individual basis, with what are you comparing your internal impressions?

I don't need to compare my internal impressions with anything else. Why would I? It's MY gender.

You also have a very anaemic model of the psyche: you use exclusively your conscious 'awareness' and disregard the subconscious; this precludes someone experiencing angst because of a mismatch between the two, with the subconscious potentially having a truer awareness of the most fruitful way that you, as a whole, could identify. I would say that this conflict is accepted in the case of repressed sexual orientation for instance. A corollary is that one's conscious identification can actually be incorrect just as someone may be incorrect in assuming themselves to be exclusively heterosexually oriented.

This seems dangerously close to reparative therapy. It wouldn't benefit a patient for a psychologist to tell them they don't know their own gender. After all, reparative therapists literally do tell patients they don't know their own sexual orientation. It would help if we had some experiemental evidence to support the claim that someone's unconscious gender differs from their conscious identity, but we don't and I predict we never will, because the feeling of being a gender is not measurable in a experimental setting. How could it be? The closest example I can think of that resembles your claim that gender can be unconscious is closet queers. Society does force people to hide their queer identities and someone might even trick themselves into believing they're straight just because that's the social expectation. But it's impossible to know that a straight person really wants to be queer inside unless the person explicity tells us they have queer desires. So the patient has the authority to pick their identity, not the therapist. If a male-bodied person identifies as a woman, and never says or does anything to suggest they consider themselves a man, then we have to believe they are a woman. Futhermore, let's assume a man does admit he wants to be a woman sometimes. Desire still differs from identification. Until that man identifies as a woman, we must accept him as a man. The fact that someone might occasionlly want to be a member of a gender different from their own only further supports my view that gender is non-essential and always potentially changeable. A man can identify as a man his whole life, while repeatedly wanting to be a woman, non-binary person, or even agendered person, AND HE WILL STILL REMAIN A MAN BECAUSE HE IDENTIFIES AS A MAN.
 

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
What makes it easy for you is that Alex Byrne's book is an academic text and so, if there's anything incorrect, it will be taken up in the literature. Are there any published papers to that effect?

I know that you're loath to decolonise but if you hadn't noticed I had said that a dualist framework causes significant damage to both of those thinkers' claims; because of that I am in a better position to oppose them than you or malelesbian are.

As a supposedly academic text, Byrne's duly went through peer review and was rejected by the publisher for not being "sufficiently serious" – several publishers according to him, which he seems to think makes him heroic or something, instead of just a bellend. But anyway, there's no need to critique it on the basis of some "dualist framework" or whatever because it's basically the same old tiresome trans-hostile twaddle, full of ridiculous strawmen which he uses to make it seem he has something meaningful to say.

I'd therefore have assumed that his book would not be "taken up in the literature" because it never made the grade to be regarded as such and nobody could be bothered. But it seems Polity themselves are publishing a counter-argument this year: "Real Gender: A Cis Defence of Trans Realities", also by professors of philosophy. I confess, the thought of yet more cis people giving their ever so valuable takes on trans issues just makes me tired, but probably I shouldn't prejudge.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I think biscuits might be trolling us here, tbh. If he were serious about this claim, he'd have proved it beyond all reasonable doubt with a Graph.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
It's possible to contribute to an ethnicity's culture without being a member of that ethnicity. If a white person talks or acts Black, that doesn't make him Black. But obviously I do associate Black cultural expression with Black people. But expressing content contributory to an ethnic culture differs from identifying as a member of the relevant ethnicity. I, a feminine man, contribute to feminine culture, but that doesn't make me a woman. A person is a woman because they performs behaviors that the relevant gender norms count as definitive of women.
Your argument basically boils down to doing things just because they're the done thing to do, not so much ethics as etiquette. Very superficial and at the mercy of your social circle.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
I mean...yes, yes I do. Your racial identity, again, depends on your parents' racial identities, not some private feeling. Also Sylvia Browne is a literal psychic. You tell me I don't support science, but at least I don't support anti-scientific nonsense like psychics!
You're a diehard essentialist when it comes to race and utterly inconsistent when it comes to the issue of self-knowing. There is copious scientific evidence for psychic abilities; you're just showing your closed-mindedness and conservatism.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Ok, then give examples of non-human societies and cultures.
At this point we're acting out a farce. Think of bees, ants, cows, crows, magpies, apes. What is the presumably theological reason you have for humans qualitative difference from the animal kingdom within which he has evolved.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
I don't need to compare my internal impressions with anything else. Why would I? It's MY gender
Language is a socially constructed web of meaning that means through comparison and difference (see Saussure and Derrida). There is no meaningful private language. You may have non-limguistic sensations but you are expressing them through a social language...why are you choosing one label for a sensation rather than another? And how can you be sure that you know what it feels like to be X? After all, you contend that people can be wholly mistaken in identifying their feelings in the cases of otherkin and transethnicism.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
@malelesbian on your last point, you seem to be content as long as you can give an administrative rule to deal with superficial social interactions i.e. to construct an etiquette. But in doing so you restrict your definitions to a surface level also: knowledge can only be conscious, the person does not include their unconscious (our thinking is mainly unconscious), and you also have yet another inconsistency as a result.
 

WashYourHands

Cat Malogen
Yes but could you expand to the world how it felt to be a woman? Using it for your wank bank is a new form of sin which may require actual divine intervention, in case you need reminding

Do you speak or listen to Jesus? Does he, sorry He, manifest often? Did He explain walking on water as Evian covering heavy-set reinforced mirrors? He told me while I was tripping once. Obvious when you deconstruct it but the Evian could’ve been council pop, what a waste

I said “jfc Jesus, you’re cheating!” and He just levitated and flew right over Camber Sands, doing mad tricks with Jesus trails zigzagging over East Sussex in the dawn skies

Jealous much?
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Yes but could you expand to the world how it felt to be a woman? Using it for your wank bank is a new form of sin which may require actual divine intervention, in case you need reminding

Do you speak or listen to Jesus? Does he, sorry He, manifest often? Did He explain walking on water as Evian covering heavy-set reinforced mirrors? He told me while I was tripping once. Obvious when you deconstruct it but the Evian could’ve been council pop, what a waste

I said “jfc Jesus, you’re cheating!” and He just levitated and flew right over Camber Sands, doing mad tricks with Jesus trails zigzagging over East Sussex in the dawn skies

Jealous much?
interesting
 

WashYourHands

Cat Malogen
He can be really cunty, keep your eye on Him

Fucker stole my lighter and has started kicking off at Pride events too although you wonder how long the artist spent on capturing such a shredded right forearm


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just don’t mention Gethsemane

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