Whither Liberalism?

[version]

Tbh I think Britain is generally a pretty liberal place it's just become a particularly shit term over the years. I don't really think it's gone anywhere as a feeling, you can walk around most places here doing whatever you want and no-one really cares as long as you're not a nonce

Yeah, this is what I mean about it seeming like it takes less effort to maintain. Imagine if we were all having to wander around in uniforms, salute all the time and rat out our neighbours. A lot more work than just minding your own business.

 

[wg-]

Also too many pub bores on the socials chomping at the bit about politics all day

 

[mixed_biscuits]

It's not faring too well at present.

What criteria are you using to judge the health of liberalism?

 

[version]

What criteria are you using to judge the health of liberalism?

Whether it's winning elections, how satisfied the public in western liberal democracies are with the status quo.

 

[version]

You about to leap to the defence of liberalism now it looks to be the contrarian position?

 

[mixed_biscuits]

conservatives devote the majority of their empathy and care to family and friends and liberals devote most of their concern to plants, trees, and inert entities such as rocks.

It's strange how liberals tend to be pro-abortion given the width of their moral net. It's almost as if the net has snagged on their stupidity and made a foetus-sized hole.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

If you care about "all things in existence", does that not encompass your friends and family?

It would do, but at the same time as Kid Charlemagne is thinking 'maybe I shouldn't stove my mum's head in with this iron bar' he also starts thinking 'she would make great compost for the petunias and they've been looking pretty sad recently'.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Tbh I think Britain is generally a pretty liberal place it's just become a particularly shit term over the years. I don't really think it's gone anywhere as a feeling, you can walk around most places here doing whatever you want and no-one really cares as long as you're not a nonce

You're in the south aren't you?

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Yeah, this is what I mean about it seeming like it takes less effort to maintain. Imagine if we were all having to wander around in uniforms, salute all the time and rat out our neighbours. A lot more work than just minding your own business.

And yet we have "hate speech" laws, with people doing exactly that in their thousands.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Whether it's winning elections, how satisfied the public in western liberal democracies are with the status quo.

Well it's confused isn't it?: the socially "progressive" parties are more liberal when it comes to some things but also much more likely to be against free speech, free trade, and in favour of importing illiberal ideologies.

By the way, according to the anthropology, we are in end-stage liberalism and have about 20 or 30 years left before we INEVITABLY (i.e. it's never happened otherwise) are supplanted by a civilisation in a healthier pre-liberal state i.e. with religion, strict moral laws, and patriarchy.

 

[version]

And yet we have "hate speech" laws, with people doing exactly that in their thousands.

That's an example of the "certain amount of policing in any system" I referred to on the second page. It's also several degrees less severe than the kind of control present in some of the other systems people have come up with.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

That's an example of the "certain amount of policing in any system" I referred to on the second page. It's also several degrees less severe than the kind of control present in some of the other systems people have come up with.

Only someone who is accommodating themselves to the coming illiberality would consider hate speech laws to be necessary in a liberal society. Wither version's liberalism? It's already disappeared round the u-bend.

 

[version]

Only someone who is accommodating themselves to the coming illiberality would consider hate speech laws to be necessary in a liberal society. Wither version's liberalism? It's already disappeared round the u-bend.

Can you have a liberal society without laws? Wouldn't that be closer to an anarchist or libertarian society?

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Can you have a liberal society without laws? Wouldn't that be closer to an anarchist or libertarian society?

You can have a liberal society without that law! And they'd be a lot more liberal because of it for obvious reasons.

 

[version]

You can have a liberal society without that law! And they'd be a lot more liberal because of it for obvious reasons.

Can you? There will be bad actors in any society unless you exercise some sort of authoritarian reeducation system, which seems even less liberal than these laws you're complaining about.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Can you? There will be bad actors in any society unless you exercise some sort of authoritarian reeducation system, which seems even less liberal than these laws you're complaining about.

You do realise that we haven't had this law for centuries and that most developed countries don't have such laws, and that even some authoritarian countries don't have them.

 

[version]

You do realise that we haven't had this law for centuries and that most developed countries don't have such laws, and that even some authoritarian countries don't have them.

And which of those societies are or were more liberal?

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Can you? There will be bad actors in any society unless you exercise some sort of authoritarian reeducation system, which seems even less liberal than these laws you're complaining about.

Did you read yyaldrin's description of how Germany is using that sort of legislation to suppress criticism of Israel and/or support for Palestinians? I think you did, so you must trust the authorities to make the right call even if you personally disagree with it, just as a child should trust their parent.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

And which of those societies are or were more liberal?

The ones without hate speech laws are more liberal on account of not having these laws e.g. Britain was more liberal before they were brought in. I don't think you understand how corrosive laws on freedom of expression are; for instance, there are probably things that you've said on here that could land you in prison either now or in the future, so what should that realisation do to your willingness to share your opinions?

 

[version]

Did you read yyaldrin's description of how Germany is using that sort of legislation to suppress criticism of Israel and/or support for Palestinians? I think you did, so you must trust the authorities to make the right call even if you personally disagree with it, just as a child should trust their parent.

You'd run into fewer of these tangles if you actually read what people had said and realised ideas can be discussed without being subscribed to.

I'll refer you to the second page of the thread once again where I said the mask can come off liberalism once it gets into trouble, which your example via yyaldrin illustrates.