PiLhead

Well-known member
How about "road" then? Is that acceptable?

Or when grime MCs go on about road this and road that, are they just prey to a mystification that more enlightened types like you and Eshun have seen through?

Streets talk runs through this music (and its American and JA counterparts) all the way.
 

joe_muggs

Active member
Binaries are the spice of life / culture

Without them it's all just mush

100% bullshit. Differentiation, discernment, sensibility DO NOT have to mean separating everything out into two sides of the fence all the fucking time. It's just something people to do make things neater, for easy understanding, or so that they can claim alleigance to or ownership over the stuff on "their" side of the fence. And as I said - and meant - that has value in certain cases. And "I like this but I don't like that" is one of the most valuable things you can ever say to yourself, especially if you're proned to get tangled up by theory. Derrida said that. But as a doctrine of how to examine culture, separation into cool/uncool real/fabricated hardcore/gentrified pure/impure etc etc etc is just cheap, lazy and always ends up being embarrassing.

"It's all just mush" (see also "cultural entropy") simply means "I can't deal with complexity"... or, in more Dad terms, "it's just a noise".
 

joe_muggs

Active member
How about "road" then? Is that acceptable?

Or when grime MCs go on about road this and road that, are they just prey to a mystification that more enlightened types like you and Eshun have seen through?

Streets talk runs through this music (and its American and JA counterparts) all the way.

Who said anything about "acceptable"? You accept what you like! You like the music you call "street" and you think music that isn't "street" is less good, fine. But that's your taste, not a definition of how scenes, sounds and rhythms are constructed.

I didn't even say I was against "street" as a description did I? Just that I agree with Kodwo Eshun's ideas - which roughly speaking are about how limiting insistence on "streetness" above all else is.
 
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Benny Bunter

Well-known member
Leaving aside the fact that you sidestepped my question about Silkie and dropped in Joy Orbison instead, for some reason....... I'm with Kodwo Eshun on the use of "street" as a description of music or culture.

Not really a fan of Silkie, and I have no idea what Kodwo Eshun says about street, never read any of his stuff. I strongly suspect that its a load of bollocks though from what you're saying.

You seem to think that this stuff is above criticism or value judgement for some reason, and evoking Kowdo Eshun or Derrida isn't making it any clear what your argument is. I've given you reasons why "I don't like this but I don't like that", but you're not listening.
 

joe_muggs

Active member
Not really a fan of Silkie, and I have no idea what Kodwo Eshun says about street, never read any of his stuff. I strongly suspect that its a load of bollocks though from what you're saying.

You seem to think that this stuff is above criticism or value judgement for some reason, and evoking Kowdo Eshun or Derrida isn't making it any clear what your argument is. I've given you reasons why "I don't like this but I don't like that", but you're not listening.

I'm listening but I'm starting to wish I wasn't.

It's very clear why you like what you like, very clear indeed :p - but what I'm saying is that you can't extrapolate from that to the generalised statements that you're making. You're getting value judgements and statements of fact mixed up.

And, who said anything was above criticism? Criticise away, we all love to criticise.... But I'm saying make your criticisms based on what you see and hear and know - don't pre-empt what you're going to see and hear and find out by getting out your felt-tip pens and drawing these careful wiggly lines around what is and isn't acceptable (/street/hardcore/real/whatever). That's why all these scene / genre definition discussions get right up my arse - because they're all about boxing in and worrying about arbitrary categories more than about sound/people/history/dancing/records.
 
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Benny Bunter

Well-known member
I suppose the reason I get so het up about post-dubstep is that it seems to get all the attention at the expense of the stuff its getting 90% of its ideas off.

Anyway I'm leaving it there as this debate is probably getting too boring for most people to take.
 

Sick Boy

All about pride and egos
I've never read any of this Joe Mugg's stuff before, but he's an unpleasant motherfucker isn't he? If popping in, confounding a discussion with questionably relevant and totally unclear arguments about binaries, and then announcing your disappearance for 18 months when no one understands what exactly the fuck it is you're talking about isn't trolling then I'm not sure what is.

See you in 18 months - I assume as little will have changed with you as it will have here.
 
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Ory

warp drive
@ muggs

do you want me to ignore the fact that i find kuduro, bubbling, funky, footwork etc (keywords: black, rude, working class, local, defined in purpose, strictly dancefloor) to be amazingly thrilling music while post-dubstep internet whiteboy music is almost uniformly shite?

it's not like i'm going out of my way to find these "binaries". they're right there, and obviously a lot of people here feel the same way -- if not about the same musics then at least for the same reasons. it seems you're offended by this.

in short: being super inclusive is boring and sucks the life out of everything. if this is "in-flux diversity" then i want nothing to do with it.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
I can see and sympathise with both sides of this debate. I love 'Energy Flash' and it had a huge influence on the way I see electronic music and music in general, but as he says in the intro, his championing of hardcore over experimentalism/self-conscious 'progressivism' was formed as a 'counter-prejudice' to the derision of hardcore then fashionable with the music-crit cognoscenti, and I think this leads him into dismissing or passing over stuff that doesn't fit into his vision of what music should do in the same way prog-house snobs dismissed hardcore because it didn't fit into their idea of what 'musicality' should be. I'm sure he himself sees this and perhaps acknowledges it within the book (I haven't read it for a while, just started again today...).

In a sense I'm almost opposed to deriding music because I've found so much music that I hated at first that I've come to love, and I'm amazed at how a shift in my expectations/taste can change how I hear things... One of the things Reynolds does so well in 'Energy Flash': explaining what there is to like about genres like Gabba which are generally shat on critically. When I read Joe's articles defending/enthusing about tracks/producers that I'm not personally crazy about, I still tend to appreciate his enthusiasm for that music, and I'm sure there are a great many who see it the same way as him. Most forums I go on and people I meet are incredibly enthusiastic about the music that would fall under this thread (I know quite a few people who make and/or DJ it), Dissensus is quite exceptional as a place where people more generally seem to be unenthusiastic or ultra-critical of it. I can't really believe that all that enthusiasm is delusional or misplaced, or the product of media hype.

Nahhh too late, too stoned, can't continue and don't know if any of the above is coherent or relevant to the discussion. But I do think this has been an interesting thread in places, and although its weird to see people getting seriously heated over it that friction between opinions and tension has made it more interesting.

Until I showed up and bored everybody of course.
 
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