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The tying in of so-called dilettante "plus/and" approaches with capitalist consumption that is usually endorsed in this and many other threads is I think something that can be questioned: the idea appears to be that we can distinguish between THE choice (the one existing outside of or against...

Saying that "either/or" = making a choice is true in one sense, but it's also about choosing to not make choices, or, perhaps, to not <i>see</i> choices. When George Bush says "you are either with us or against us", he is obv. choosing sides, but he is also choosing <i>not</i> to choose between...

"I think this might be down to the slight undercurrent of tension that seems to be running through the board at the mo. " Yes this is what I was talking about all along: imminent growing pains afoot. There'll be blood before bedtime!

"Ooh La La" was largely pilloried on ILM, not for the politics but because schaffel is boring now (I think this is half-right: explicitly glammy schaffel is kinda exhausted now, all the good recent stuff is abstracted and super-complex like Alex Smoke's "You're A Bit Rough"); not so much a case...

I think it's illuminating that my comments re the identity split have been interpreted as a decisive taking of sides! When what I was trying to say was that it seemed unfortunate that, to use droid's formulation, threads are split between non-practical theoretical engagement and non-theoretical...

Yeah Love Inc's "Hot Love" is probably the first "real" schaffel track, although there's heaps of previous stuff that you could make a case for (leaving aside half-serious references to "Rock & Roll Pt 2" et. al. I think Depeche Mode's "Personal Jesus" is probably the track that gets the sonics...

Perhaps I should have said "sense of identity" - I think the division between heavyweights and grime spam is a false one. i.e I agree with you Bassnation... for all that I am guilty as charged w/r/t navelgazing.

Bassnation your response couldn't have illustrated my point better, surely?

"Surely those 'discussions' are going nowhere though... any substantive disagreement would have been taken seriously, but it's difficult to see how meta-level judgements of the type 'this thread shouldn't even be happening' could be uh 'included'. There's clearly an area between embattled...

Paul have you heard the original version by Tori Alamaze (it was floating around at the end of last year/beginning of this year)? It's a bit more goth. Opinion seems to be split fairly evenly on which version is better.

"You're not admitting to being one of Reynolds' Lickspittles are you? That's what we all are at Dissensus, according to A Certain Person, don't you know..." A Certain Person has a flair for controversy. My suspicion (stolen from somone in a more forgiving mood on an ILM thread) is that...

Simon I'm not surprised the distance between us isn't as huge as perhaps it appeared: I am far too derivative of you for such a gulf to really be possible!

Yes, I <i>have</i> been constructing a strawman nu-rockist because i wanted you guys to differentiate yourselves from it! My position all along has been that none of you are actually nu-rockists (hence me saying that you don't take your own anti-enjoyment crusade seriously); you're all too smart...

Yeah that's "Charge (Remix)" isn't it? Love that track! Having said that I actually prefer Mighty Mo's defence of old fashioned seduction ("before a galla get sexual it's essential that we get sensual!") to Lethal's paranoid hysterics. I sort of feel like issues of violence, homophobia...

At the risk of being accused of spamming, I talked about this issue a bit on the same ILM thread which has given rise to the hairshirt dissensians thread here. As against the primacy of subjective opinion: ".. I dunno, i'm interested in discussions about music which carry the caveat "this is...

NB. I unintentionally (but intriguingly) called Mark "Marx" in my previous post. I hope he takes it as an accidental compliment!

Yes bipedaldave that is the point I've been trying to make (evidently not very successfully! I'm not sure I have much luck articulating my position, although I intuitively sense it is worth articulating...). My beef isn't really with Dissensians taking seriously things like politics, artist...

"But couldn't we just as easily say that it is something we must consider to be a worthwhile component of the music in order to enjoy it?" Yes, but in either case the enjoyment and the consideration aren't separate, because... "Isn't this the nub of it though? Convictions are very different...

Simon's example of dancehall is a good one, if only from the self-centered perspective of allowing me to clarify my position. Of course there are dancehall tracks I love but also feel uncomfortable about, and even dancehall tracks that I love and don't have a problem with but wonder if maybe I...

Agree about "Situation's Heavy", an awesome and largely unheralded tune that one. I'm in the minority of having liked their last album <i>Three</i> more than the two prior. Strangely picked up on a sort of post-trip hop balladic vibe, and more strangely pulled it off with flying colours...