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Thread: Jacob Rees-Mogg

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by vimothy View Post
    it seems a bit too convenient if the way influence works is that my ideological opponents are being manipulated and taken advantage of, whereas I am free from influence.
    yes.

    and that conception happens on all sides. i suppose that's what the alt-right media have furiously been trying to establish - that supposedly no-one is immune to media influence (even if that seems to me like the sort of thing people with massive emotional investment in the media data-stream believe - plenty of people aren't THAT interested)

    the left argue they're the eternal losers. and the stats today [generally] support the idea of the top echelons of society having an *unseemly* disproportionate amount of resources. difficult, pointless even, to argue with that in 2018...

    but there are always cross-currents between big state (by which i meant authority) and little state (by which i meant self-determination). no working government is able to be one or the other - even the USA where, truthfully, democrats are closer to tories.

    etcetera ad infinitum.

  2. #62
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    the left argue they're the eternal losers
    in theory the whole point of the left is to fight for the losers, the oppressed and the exploited.
    to use weight of numbers to push back against wealth, power and influence lol

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  4. #63
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    "Thanks" for that. Jesus wept.

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid View Post
    Even I didnt realise it was quite so bad.
    the role of private pensions apparently brings the UK up to an average level, making this basically a massive 'optional' tax - pay up or live in aged poverty.

    I'd never really thought about the fact that private pensions aren't such a central consideration in many countries. Presumably in Ireland they still are, given that it doesn't shine in that league table either?
    Last edited by baboon2004; 14-08-2018 at 05:14 PM.

  6. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    adam curtis voice
    Its your idea, I'm just applying it a bit more consistently.

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by vimothy View Post
    Its your idea, I'm just applying it a bit more consistently.
    you have no idea how im applying it. you havent asked. youve assumed.

  8. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    you have no idea how im applying it. you havent asked. youve assumed.
    nonsense. Im free from all assumptions and prejudice. this is simply how it be, the unveiled truth

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  10. #68
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    you exist within your own thick gaseous cloud comprised solely of unfounded assumption. i breathe the pure air of objectivity. once you've taken enough acids that's what happens.

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  12. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by luka View Post
    in theory the whole point of the left is to fight for the losers, the oppressed and the exploited.
    Is this why there's never been a successful, widespread socialist movement in the USA? Of all countries, people there hate to think of themselves as 'losers'.

    I'm reminded of the quote about how "poor Americans never think of themselves as poor - just temporarily embarrassed millionaires".
    Quote Originally Posted by woops
    i hate sigs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Tea View Post
    Is this why there's never been a successful, widespread socialist movement in the USA?
    depends on one's definitions of widespread and successful but late 19th century thru til inter-WW period had quite strong leftist presence, Debs, IWW, etc

    but yeah it's one of the reasons. related to/part of the constellation of rugged individualism, bootstraps and so on.

    class has always been much, much less conscious here than UK. everyone who's not abjectly poor or staggeringly wealthy is middle-class.

    many decades of gutting organized labor ain't helping, ofc.

    remains to be seen how much juice current "democratic socialism" - meaning more like social democracy - wave has, how much damage it can undo if any.

  14. #71
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    we're trapped in frontier mentality in a country that hasn't had frontiers in 130+ years. like if Scandinavians were still working thru Viking Era mores.

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  16. #72
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    only skimmed the last couple pages but don't think it's insulting to suggest masses of working-class/poor/etc are routinely hugely mislead to vote/act against their interests

    astroturfing, dog whistle language, industry (energy, tobacco, soda, whatever) lobbying groups with paradoxical names, you barely have to scratch the surface

    I grant it can be hard to draw exact lines between sincere advocacy and cynical manipulation, but that's politics/life in general

    "false consciousness" sounds a bit snobby I guess but it's not like Engels was describing a new thing. it's an inevitable feature of democracy, part of the price you pay for openness.

    there ain't a good thing yet been invented that some lobbyist/consultant motherfucker won't take an oligarch's check to twist into some perptrating bullshit.

  17. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    the left argue they're the eternal losers
    no, they don't. luka's right, they're arguing FOR the losers, downtrodden etc. a crucial difference.

  18. #74
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    In any case, the middle and upper classes are being routinely misled and manipulated all day every day themselves.
    Αι ψυχαί οσμώνται καθ΄ Άιδην.

  19. #75
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    idk man, I know devil's advocate follow the point to its rational conclusion is one of vimothy's things but I don't buy this endless, turtles all the way down it's all manipulation thing

    I mean sure whatever but it's like saying is the world really real? academically interesting but got fuck-all to do with actually living.

    like no one's information or perspective is 100% pure but so what? we're talking about people or institutions made up of people consciously manipulating large numbers of other people to their benefit. those benefits, and the costs that produce them, are real. even if sometimes its harder than other times to discern the causes of the effects.
    Last edited by padraig (u.s.); 16-08-2018 at 09:16 AM.

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