IdleRich

IdleRich
Well the wider point is that things aren’t rosy in the EU generally and France in particular. The EU is going to be forced to reform itself and the crisis will intensify. That may or may not result in France leaving the EU. But things can change quickly and unexpectedly.
Well yeah they can but that doesn't mean that you take how something is now and say "but things change" and use it as an argument for the exact opposite of what it seems to imply.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Politicians are always to blame. How on earth is blaming the electorate going to work anyway? There’s a secret ballot and politicians lie.

If politicians lie then people can be misled by them, can't they? That's all I'm asking you to acknowledge here. Thinking something that's not true because you've been lied to isn't a moral failing. It doesn't make you an awful person. I've been taking some pains to point this out.

The idea of some kind of collective sanction for voting is freaky totalitarian stuff which is kind of exciting coming from someone who was previously convinced that I was some kind of apologist for the gulags.

You're right! Just as well I explicitly rejected any such thing, isn't it?

obviously it would neither be feasible nor ethical to restrict the franchise based on a minimum IQ score or anything like that.

:rolleyes:

I don't mind being disagreed with but FFS, please disagree with what I've written and not with what you'd like me to have written.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
Well yeah they can but that doesn't mean that you take how something is now and say "but things change" and use it as an argument for the exact opposite of what it seems to imply.

Well we live in unpredictable times, basically.

The FN came second in the last election and a quick shufty at Marine LePen’s Wikipedia page reveals she is not a big fan of the EU in its current form and would like a referendum. So that is interesting in the context of the poll you mention. Maybe her support rests on something else?
 

john eden

male pale and stale
What does this actually mean in practical terms?

at what point do you think voters actually can be held responsible for the consequences of their voting choices?

How do you think voters are or would be “held responsible”?
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
In fact I could be wrong too.
But it's not a huge surprise to see Brexit making EU referendums increasingly unpopular in the rest of the EU. I mean that even if you don't accept that the Tories are slightly disappointed with the way they handled it, I think it's not gonna be controversial that most of EU populace is watching in a mixture of horror and hilarity... certainly they are in Lisbon to bolster my assertion with some anecdotal evidence.
 

sufi

lala
In fact I could be wrong too.
But it's not a huge surprise to see Brexit making EU referendums increasingly unpopular in the rest of the EU. I mean that even if you don't accept that the Tories are slightly disappointed with the way they handled it, I think it's not gonna be controversial that most of EU populace is watching in a mixture of horror and hilarity... certainly they are in Lisbon to bolster my assertion with some anecdotal evidence.
i expect that the brexit hate campaign will soon generate similar fear and loathing between brits and euros
 

sufi

lala
I just saw a fake news about Barnier refusing to speak to journalists in English.

I'm interested to know about how use of English as an official language in European institutions will be affected, but that's the sort of practical issue that none of the remain/leave rabid ninnies seem to have any awareness about
 

yyaldrin

in je ogen waait de wind
i do notice a sense of relief actually on the streets here since brexit. there's a lot of sentimental video's going around of eu officials crying cos the brits are leaving but if you'd ask the people on the street i think most of them are just very glad actually.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
How do you think voters are or would be “held responsible”?

I mean accepting that if the factories they work in close down and their local infrastructure crumbles because the only thing holding it together was EU regional grants, then saying: "Yes, this is what we wanted. We've taken back control and this is the price we were prepared to pay."

Because if the response is "We've been had!" instead - as I suspect it will be - then that blows your argument that they weren't misinformed out of the water, doesn't it?
 

john eden

male pale and stale
I mean accepting that if the factories they work in close down and their local infrastructure crumbles because the only thing holding it together was EU regional grants, then saying: "Yes, this is what we wanted. We've taken back control and this is the price we were prepared to pay."

Because if the response is "We've been had!" instead - as I suspect it will be - then that blows your argument that they weren't misinformed out of the water, doesn't it?

That seems more like them accepting responsibility.

How would they be “held responsible”? To me that implies some sort of external body. Or other people.
 

version

Well-known member
They're trying to rebrand 'No Deal' as the 'Australian Deal' now. No doubt people will fall for that one too and start talking about how they always wanted the "Australian" option.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
That seems more like them accepting responsibility.

How would they be “held responsible”? To me that implies some sort of external body. Or other people.

Then if some of them get "told you so" type messages on Twitter and you're not around to dry their eyes and give them a cuddle, they may just have to "suck it up", to coin a phrase.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
i do notice a sense of relief actually on the streets here since brexit. there's a lot of sentimental video's going around of eu officials crying cos the brits are leaving but if you'd ask the people on the street i think most of them are just very glad actually.

I can hardly blame them. Our press and our pro-Leave MEPs have been an intense embarrassment for years.
 
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