sgn

Well-known member
if it's irrelevant why is gender always discussed when the few successful women are interviewed or talked about

Sorry for butting in, but -

A) Because it's an easy way for journalists to fill space. It provides a potentially interesting angle and maybe a couple of soundbites in what would otherwise be another boring interview with another boring artist (because let's face it, electronic producers are not the most exciting people on the planet). Most of us don't listen to a Maya Jane Coles or a Cooly G record and think "wow, this is good. Fascinating that a woman made it". It's just good or it's not.

Also I've read a few interviews with established female artists like Dinky, Ellen Alien, Magda etc. and their gender is rarely brought up or even alluded to. They're just artists who happen to be women. So yes, it is irrelevant in such cases, and I would consider this to be a good thing.

B) Because, as you said, there are only a "few" of them and therefore it's a less worn out topic than most. This is why a popular DJ who isn't a producer is always asked what it's like to be a DJ who doesn't produce, has he ever thought about producing and when will you start making records already.

However, I do think that gender is relevant in this case in the sense that it would be helpful/motivational for a woman interested in production/dj'ing to read about the experiences and perspective of a woman who's actually "made it".

why are there so few female producers/djs/label owners?

I don't think any of us can provide a concrete answer to that, but here's some conjecture anyway - Why are there so few Indian techno and post dubstep producers? Why are there such a small number of black Rock and Metal bands? Well, a multitude of reasons I'm sure, but the primary one would probably be that a significantly lower percentage of these demographics are interested in that particular field than the dominant group and therefore a lower percentage of them are good/lucky enough to get noticed. Why? I have no idea why people are drawn to the things they're drawn to. But if my answer to both these questions was "well, because of racists", that would be idiotic.

Similarly, to imply that the reason there are less women in dance music simply because "sexism" is a lazy oversimplication and doesn't help the feminist cause in the slightest. I'm not saying that this is what you're implying, but the DJ Mag article in the Guardian by the female dj (can't recall her name) linked to in The Quietus piece was a terrible example of this. While there may have been 10 thousand female dj's who didn't make that shitty list, there would be about a million male ones that didn't either. I'm under no illusions that we live in a sexist society, but for her to come to the conclusion that she didn't make it because of some patriarchal conspiracy (and not because maybe she sucks but doesn't suck spectacularly enough to make a list topped by David Guetta) while moaning about not making "top-billing territory" smacked of a case of entitlement and self-victimization, not sexism.

Okay, I'm just rambling now, so I'm gonna stop.

Sorry for the rant. I think I'm done talking about gender politics for the rest of my life.

Edit - Just wanna add that the Corpsey post is excellent and he makes some great points about post dubstep and the discourse surrounding it.
 
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wise

bare BARE BONES
I would imagine that maybe if you're a woman then maybe the lack of women djs/producers/promoters might seem like more of a problem, but maybe not.

Are there any women posters/lurkers here?
 

wise

bare BARE BONES
Also I don't think there are any more women at post-dubstep nights then there are at wobble or d&b nights.

The idea that women don't like aggressive music is sexist in itself.

I went to the Garage night Found at Hidden last Friday and there were admittedly a lot more women there than any 'current music' nights i've been to in the last couple of years.
Set of the night was Matt 'Jam' Lamont who I loved but when I played some of his mixes to my wife the next day she said it was far too upbeat and she wanted to go out and hear some dark filthy music.
 

paolo

Mechanical phantoms
Bloody hell, it's all kicking off in here (again). I've seen more girls at these sort of events in Glasgow than I did at dubstep nights in 06 or whenever. Maybe it's a geekiness thing, in my experience more guys than girls are massive music nerds (I know I am :))
 

rubberdingyrapids

Well-known member
this thread has become quite emotional. like the music! ha.

anyway, lots of women liked jungle, heavy dubstep, darker garage. even grime, lots of teenage girls were going to the raves/events. i always found it weird when terror danjah talked about his masterplan for getting girls back into raves which was pretty contrived to begin with but made worse by most of the R&G songs being totally songless. yeah women dont want to go to an event full of too many testosteroney guys, but doesnt mean they dont like hard music. annie mac and MAH getting into dubstep should be evidence of that.

after all this discussion of gender, everyone should give their 2 cents on race.
 
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Numbers

Well-known member
Bloody hell, it's all kicking off in here (again). I've seen more girls at these sort of events in Glasgow than I did at dubstep nights in 06 or whenever. Maybe it's a geekiness thing, in my experience more guys than girls are massive music nerds (I know I am :))

Absolutely. The dubstep nights I went to in 2005-06 counted very few girls in the public. It were mostly just male nerd/squatterfests, with the occasional girlfriend-of.
 

gragy10

Veteran Lurker
Also I don't think there are any more women at post-dubstep nights then there are at wobble or d&b nights.

The idea that women don't like aggressive music is sexist in itself

This and Slothrop's post above are points I'd never considered before but I think are pretty important. That attitude of wanting to make/promote music 'that girls dance to' is def one I've been guilty of but I think is usually linked to a specific type of girl.
Having spent for time than I'd like around big wobble and jump up d&b nights the idea that they're some kind of bro-deo isn't remotely accurate - there's not been an even gender split true but it's not massively unbalanced (which I thinks probably linked to the music being overtly party/big room music foremost)
 

Joey Joe-Joe Jr. Shabadoo

Well-known member
Thanks Simon, you said it more succinctly that I was going to.

If people think it's an overreaction, fine - although I don't, obviously. I think it's better that people are acutely aware of the issue before it's a massive thing rather than after. I can see why you might think the proof in the article is a bit scanty. I've got a big ole list of youtube rippers but they didn't get put in the article. e.g.




I think the most alarming thing about those links is how boring the music is
 

UFO over easy

online mahjong
sgn said:
I don't think any of us can provide a concrete answer to that, but here's some conjecture anyway - Why are there so few Indian techno and post dubstep producers? Why are there such a small number of black Rock and Metal bands? Well, a multitude of reasons I'm sure, but the primary one would probably be that a significantly lower percentage of these demographics are interested in that particular field than the dominant group

well the obvious point to make is that women are not a minority group. it's a worthwhile issue to bring up but given that there are equal numbers of women in our society, and a lot of women who do go to nights and listen to the music (the overwhelmingly positive reactions from women in the quietus comments section attests to this), what's your basis for saying that a "significantly lower percentage of these demographics are interested"?

sgn said:
Why? I have no idea why people are drawn to the things they're drawn to. But if my answer to both these questions was "well, because of racists", that would be idiotic.

no one's saying that, and it's not specifically the fault of this particular scene - this is the way everything is structured, but "that's just the way it is" is a similarly idiotic response and one that's worth picking apart.

sgn said:
Sorry for the rant. I think I'm done talking about gender politics for the rest of my life.

five minutes well spent
 

sgn

Well-known member
well the obvious point to make is that women are not a minority group.

Neither are Indians, seeing that China is not the home of post dubstep (yet).

what's your basis for saying that a "significantly lower percentage of these demographics are interested"?

Well, much like you - First hand experience and conjecture. I obviously don't have any hard statistical data to prove this, the same way I don't have any hard statistical data to prove that the majority of Twilight fans are women or the majority of comic books and sports fans are men. There certainly are male Twilight fans and even more female comic books and sports fans, but I thought it was obvious that they are in the minority. I guess it's not. Maybe there's more of a balance in the UK, in which case that's great.


no one's saying that, and it's not specifically the fault of this particular scene - this is the way everything is structured, but "that's just the way it is" is a similarly idiotic response and one that's worth picking apart.

You're right, "that's just the way it is" is idiotic, lazy and vague. But so is "this is the way everything is structured". I'm not a writer, clearly, but I'd be interested in reading someone who is smarter, more articulate and less lazy than I am (I've just set myself up for a cheap shot) write an article about this in relation to the dance music scene.
 

SecondLine

Well-known member
You're right, "that's just the way it is" is idiotic, lazy and vague. But so is "this is the way everything is structured". I'm not a writer, clearly, but I'd be interested in reading someone who is smarter, more articulate and less lazy than I am (I've just set myself up for a cheap shot) write an article about this in relation to the dance music scene.

If you are genuinely curious, just read some books on feminism and the way patriarchy functions. I can't recommend any particular ones off the top of my head but there are plenty out there.
 

Elijah

Butterz
this thread has become quite emotional. like the music! ha.

anyway, lots of women liked jungle, heavy dubstep, darker garage. even grime, lots of teenage girls were going to the raves/events. i always found it weird when terror danjah talked about his masterplan for getting girls back into raves which was pretty contrived to begin with but made worse by most of the R&G songs being totally songless. yeah women dont want to go to an event full of too many testosteroney guys, but doesnt mean they dont like hard music. annie mac and MAH getting into dubstep should be evidence of that.

after all this discussion of gender, everyone should give their 2 cents on race.

Lol thats some of the best music he ever made.

So Sure - has the same drums as Cock Back
 

Mcgough

New member
itusedtobe.jpg
 

Blackdown

nexKeysound
New mix by us.

Damu "Breathless"
Sully "Encona"
Sully "Let You"
Logos "Kowloon"
Dusk + Blackdown "We Ain't Beggin"
Kowton "Looking At You"
Logos "King Mob VIP"
LV & Joshua Idehen "Primary Colours (extended remix)"
Damu ft Trim "Ridin the Hype"
Visionist "Come On"
Double Helix "LDN"
Amen Ra "Essence Investigation"
Dusk "Fraction (Kowton remix)"
Dusk "Fraction"
 
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