"Owning"

[4linehaiku]

My reading of that comment was slightly different. "Owned" is entering (or entered) common usage as a sort of general "I'm better than" term. Isn't that more palatable if its original meaning is somebody beating some else in a computer game rather than actually killing them / beating them senseless? The people using it isn't the issue, it's the meaning. Woebot (I think it was Woebot) was conflating "gang slanguage" with violence. You are conflating it with race.

 

[scottdisco]

I think eliding that info from a discussion is a huge problem and one of the not-even subtle ways that institutionalized racism perpetuates itself...

i can see that's true re elisions, truly, i can (despite what problems and pauses this gives myself when i think about my own responses to these issues); i think my responses are suffering, tbh, from only jumping into this thread to see something Grizzleb said that i liked about victims (my i am burning their ears today!), when

More generally there's a problem with saying that only one group is a victim of society, that you can only talk about one group being a victim as any others are less, it totally removes any of the subtleties and intricacies that societal problems entail and creates a situation where injustice generally is ignored, because only one problem is historically significant enough to warrant ones outrage.

i mean, there are hierarchies (or should be, in terms of deserving of remedy, discussion, attention) of victimhood, quite rightly of course (and i know i am grossly underplaying structural privileges here when i say 'victimhood' without even considering all the massively loaded bases that are extra-stacked against minority ethnic Britons, say) but the above is fair comment.

but yeah totally true observations re the USA, thugs, Clint, etc, very much.

 

[zhao]

Anyway, the whole reason it was brought up at all was because someone made a post that implied that "owning" when used as slang was more acceptable morally because it didn't originate in gang 'slanguage'-- which makes it somehow less capitalistical than if it originated in Geekspeak. I mean, I don't see how I'm the only person who found that strange... it's the same thing every racist in the U.S. says-- that somehow racial minorities being macho, hip-hop, 'thug' clothes, etc., are all signs that Satan is upon us. But Clint Eastwood is an American hero.

on behalf of the board, i thank you for bring it up.

we all grow up in the context of structural racism, and all of us, of whatever color or class, have largely unconscious, foundational racist notions deeply embedded in our heads, on which many other notions might be built.

we all have these, and should not take it personally when someone brings it up, making us check ourselves and in the process becoming more acutely aware of, and sensitive to, this problem which still plagues every part of the world.

 

[zhao]

White people do not, no matter who they are, or how lowly their social status, deal with the same basic level of institutionalized racism that minorities do *every day*, *all the time*, in *every walk of life*.

Snort. No, but most gangs are black men or other minorities. What I said does not require that all gangs are black, but simply that most gangs are made of minorities, and most often, black men.

The fact that some white people have it rough in no way mitigates or negates the fact that the vast majority of ethnic majorities in post-colonial diasporas are disadvantaged socially, economically, and otherwise. This is what "white privilege" means-- all white people have it, simply by virtue of being seen as "white" by society, without even trying. A poor white person, even at the same income/poverty level as a black person, has a better shot at economic opportunities and social parity than their black counterpart does.

The logical 'abilities' of people on here gets to me sometimes. Think through what you say... think, am I maybe trying to sweep racism under the rug by shutting down any discussion of the fact that it exists?

this happens with my girlfriend, who will sometimes say i am being paranoid, or overly sensitive, when i find cases of hate speech or stereotyping or plain old fashioned bigotry.

she is less sensitive to it because she has never experienced it first hand, and have no idea what it's like to have experienced it regularly since childhood.

so it is no malice on her part and she doesn't mean to belittle the experience of victimization, it's just that she has not the capacity to understand from a victim's perspective.

 

[baboon2004]

this happens with my girlfriend, who will sometimes say i am being paranoid, or overly sensitive, when i find cases of hate speech or stereotyping or plain old fashioned bigotry.

she is less sensitive to it because she has never experienced it first hand, and have no idea what it's like to have experienced it regularly since childhood.

so it is no malice on her part and she doesn't mean to belittle the experience of victimization, it's just that she has not the capacity to understand from a victim's perspective.

but telling someone else it doesn't exist/is in your head is something no-one should do, as it coincides with the typical get-out clause/ response of the oppressor. Your g/f can understand that.

not personalising it at all, but the problem (a la Einstein's famous quote, well twisted a bit) is precsely THAT people who are not affected don't speak out against instances of fascism. I try to as much as I can - and of course I falter/fail on many occasions* - but I do realise it's incumbent upon me as a member of the hegemonic class/status (middle class white male) to speak out where I see bigotry vs others.... it's one of the most important things in the world to realise this, surely?

And it's kinda especially ironic when you live in Germany, cos they kinda had that problem once before, no??!

*I think anyone who says they always speak out is a liar, btw (not related to anyone on this board, as no-one has said this, just for clarity!)

 

[scottdisco]

can i just add Zhao i liked your correctly drawing an equivalence between the equally capital-infused foundations of gangs and the world of computer wizardry.

WOEBOT to his credit appears to be giving pause to owning purely through personal discomfort because he believed the word to be associated w gangs that necessarily have to mete out personal violence in order to prosper, nay, survive, in obviously a way that other groups of capitalists (computer programmers etc) don't due to their living within the rule of law as constituted in such and such a society. (which as a fellow weedy WASP much like WOEBOT , i can see what he's getting at.)

Zhao's thing w his gf reminds me of conversations i've had w good non-white British mates, when i was much, much younger, not knowing any better (i hasten to add) and genuinely initially thought some of their perceptions from tales i'd hear were them 'overegging' or over-seasoning the situation; and, of course, they were right and i was wrong when i took a second look and thought about it.

(and some of the things i've heard about race in the USA from American friends of any ethnic background pretty much have made my hair stand on end.)

 

[baboon2004]

I had some instances this past weekend where friends of a friend were coming out with mildly racist things...and I let it go, partly cos of peer pressure dynamics, and partly because I guess they weren't hurting anyone directly (just white males talking amongst themselves. But still....). Just makes me feel a little sad.

Zhao, dunno if this is the same where you are, but in Britain anti-Chinese and anit-Japanese racism is still tolerated where anti-Afro-Caribbean or anti-Indian/Pakistani racism wouldn't be. It's fucked up...

 

[massrock]

As mentioned by Sectionfive on page 1,

Prison ?

Isn't this the actual origin?

 

[Mr. Tea]

As mentioned by Sectionfive on page 1,

Isn't this the actual origin?

Who knows? These things are almost invariably impossible to pin down as far as their ultimate origin is concerned. Very often we'll never know for sure, or there isn't a single correct answer even in principal because it's a result of "parallel evolution" of language or the confluence of two originally separate verbal memes. I mean just look up "O.K." on Wikipedia, there's something like a dozen speculative etymologies.

As far as "owning" goes, the prison thing is certainly plausible but can anyone back it up? It certainly became widespread as a result of gamer culture, I'm pretty sure of that though.

 

[massrock]

Who knows? These things are almost invariably impossible to pin down as far as their ultimate origin is concerned.

Yes, yes of course.

What I mean is it seems clear that it was in use as prison slang long before it was adopted by gamers etc. And actually in what other context would it have originated in that sense? You know what it means, right? I guess it's also a (very) darkly ironic reference to slave ownership.

And just to further point out the obvious, nerdy gamers adopting this term has a kind of deliberate and slightly self-mocking irony about it.

 

[zhao]

Zhao, dunno if this is the same where you are, but in Britain anti-Chinese and anit-Japanese racism is still tolerated where anti-Afro-Caribbean or anti-Indian/Pakistani racism wouldn't be. It's fucked up...

there is something to this for sure. i think east asian culture is still alien and therefore threatening in a lot of ways, while "black" culture has been well assimilated for some time.

sorry for so many personal anecdotes but again, my GF's neighbor (who turned out to be a nice guy that i might actually start doing something business with) asked her some sketchy questions like why she is with a CHINESE guy?? and some of her friends have asked her why she doesn't go out with a "nice German boy".

a lot of this i attribute to the fact that there are just very few east asians here in Germany. i think we are easier to pick on for various reasons, and racist jokes about east asians are somehow more OK than jokes about other groups.

 

[Pestario]

Zhao, dunno if this is the same where you are, but in Britain anti-Chinese and anit-Japanese racism is still tolerated where anti-Afro-Caribbean or anti-Indian/Pakistani racism wouldn't be. It's fucked up...

It's a numbers/visibility game. In Australia east and south-east Asian racism is much less tolerated than anti-Indian/Pakistani racism due to the inverse proportional numbers of each group compared to the UK. Perhas there is a critical mass of a certain group which is required before casual racism against that group becomes untolerable.

 

[baboon2004]

sorry for so many personal anecdotes but again, my GF's neighbor (who turned out to be a nice guy that i might actually start doing something business with) asked her some sketchy questions like why she is with a CHINESE guy?? and some of her friends have asked her why she doesn't go out with a "nice German boy".

sorry, but that's really fucked. If any of my friends said something similar (my g/f has Iranian roots, which obv is 'problematic' for some people for differing reasons), they wouldn't be my friend for much longer....didn't realise Germany (and especially Berlin!!!) was quite so backward on issues of race....

 

[grizzleb]

It's a numbers/visibility game. In Australia east and south-east Asian racism is much less tolerated than anti-Indian/Pakistani racism due to the inverse proportional numbers of each group compared to the UK. Perhas there is a critical mass of a certain group which is required before casual racism against that group becomes untolerable.

That makes sense.

@nomad, look at the many caveats I made - I wasn't in any way negating the deep structural or institutional racism that people of non white ethnic origin go through - what I was saying that sometimes it should be possible to talk about social problems that occur apart from that problem, because otherwise you lose sight of injustice as a whole. I think it's pretty funny that you tacitly accuse everyone of being racist when it was you who equated gangs with black people. I don't think that's necessarily true in Britain. Gang culture is pretty ethnically diverse. But whatever, other people's use of language is supporting hememony...sigh. When all I really said was 'there's a problem with some aspect of our culture - what's up with that?'

Anyway, fuck it. I need to get off this forum and do some work haha.

 

[baboon2004]

what I was saying that sometimes it should be possible to talk about social problems that occur apart from that problem, because otherwise you lose sight of injustice as a whole. I think it's pretty funny that you tacitly accuse everyone of being racist when it was you who equated gangs with black people. I don't think that's necessarily true in Britain. Gang culture is pretty ethnically diverse.

Not sure about the whole context (no time to read back through all of it), but certainly class is massively important, and cuts across/interacts with race in all kinds of ways (and is implicit in almost very social problem). And gender, of course.

I agree with your second point there theoretically, but when kids were dying left right and centre in south London a couple of years back (obv this hasn't stopped, but the hysteria has died down somewhat), all but one of about 20-25 was black (he was of Thai background, if memory serves). As I say, agree totally with your point in principle, but it's interesting to note, nonetheless

 

[grizzleb]

Yeah, there's loads of gang shit that goes down in my city of Glasgow that probably 90% white. Was talking the UK as a whole, obviously London and other English cities it will be different. And it's pretty much all blade culture up here, so less well publicised gun killings. Class is massively important in this, yeah.

 

[baboon2004]

Yeah, there's loads of gang shit that goes down in my city of Glasgow that probably 90% white. Was talking the UK as a whole, obviously London and other English cities it will be different. And it's pretty much all blade culture up here, so less well publicised gun killings. Class is massively important in this, yeah.

very true.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Good points from both of you - London is not Britain, of course, but gang violence here does (with some justification* of course) tend to receive more meedja coverage than it does when it happens elsewhere in the country.

*not implying that it's worse when a kid in London dies than when a kid in Brum or Glasgow or anywhere else dies - I just mean that the overall numbers of serious crimes are going to be higher because of the far greater population, before you take anything else into account. And yes, in London serious gang violence is overwhelmingly committed by black youths/young men against other black youths/young men.

 

[nomadthethird]

on behalf of the board, i thank you for bring it up.

we all grow up in the context of structural racism, and all of us, of whatever color or class, have largely unconscious, foundational racist notions deeply embedded in our heads, on which many other notions might be built.

we all have these, and should not take it personally when someone brings it up, making us check ourselves and in the process becoming more acutely aware of, and sensitive to, this problem which still plagues every part of the world.

Not even gonna bother Zhao with the British "reverse racism" arguments. Not, even, gonna, bother.

Multinational corporations that employ geeks ARE implicated in violence, btw, thread.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Nomad, the average "geek" is probably not some kind of amoral computer science genius who earns a five-figure salary designing missing guidance systems or whatever it is you're getting at. To me, the word broadly implies someone with poor social skills and an unhealthily obsessive interest in a subject or hobby most people would regard as either arcane or boring. Such people are generally more likely to earn a modest living doing a more or less menial job or holding a very junior academic tenure - or to be unemployed altogether, perhaps still living at home - than to be raking in mega-bucks working for Haliburton.

As for "reverse racism arguments" in this thread, I'm not going to bother asking you what you're not going to bother about. You're just obsessed with this idea that all (white) British people are frothing, paranoid racists.