World Cup 2010

[baboon2004]

How many England players, apart from Hargreaves have been bought by top foreign clubs in recent years? (honest question)

I'm guessing it's not many- why is this? (again, honest question)

I'm sure big foreign clubs have had interest in Lampard and Gerrard etc, but for whatever reason the deal never went through...tends to be the English players with exceptional skills who have prospered abroad, such as McManaman and Waddle.

 

[matt b]

Because generally speaking the top English clubs are rich enough to see off foreign bids. Gerrard may well go to Real this summer, they'd certainly like Rooney too. But there's little incentive for the likes of Ashley Cole to go abroad when Chelsea can match them for wages and chances of glory. (This is already changing to some degree, cos of weak pound (until Euro's recent collapse, and fucked ownership structure at certaiin NW clubs).

OK.

Could this be to the detriment of English players, or does the influx of foreign talent mean that England's best players no longer need to go abroad to see different styles of play in action (or do the foreign players change their style of play in the premiership?)?

This playing in own domestic league doesn't seem to have affected Germany (or Italy?), mind.

 

[slim jenkins]

How can they not be enthusiastic at the World Cup? That's what I mean by psychology...baffles me. They seem to freeze. Even if you don't like the formation you're forced to play in...for f*ck's sake, it's the World Cup. As an unbiased CFC fan, I'd keep Lampard over Gerrard...

 

[crackerjack]

OK.

Could this be to the detriment of English players, or does the influx of foreign talent mean that England's best players no longer need to go abroad to see different styles of play in action (or do the foreign players change their style of play in the premiership?)?

A bit of both, I guess, but the old cliche that players in the Premiership get less time on the ball and are less concerned about giving it away cheaply cos they get it back sooner still holds.

 

[matt b]

How can they not be enthusiastic at the World Cup?

Because they only know if they are playing 2 hours before a game obv.

I don't know how substitutes can even remember how to kick a football, given that they may have only a couple of minutes notice...

 

[matt b]

A bit of both, I guess, but the old cliche that players in the Premiership get less time on the ball and are less concerned about giving it away cheaply cos they get it back sooner still holds.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Would you say that the reasons why England are so poor is structural rather than the current media speculation blaming boredom/no wags/strict manager (radio 5 on about it again now)?

Until a week ago those very features were England's salvation after Sven's liberal regime lost them the last WC.

 

[crackerjack]

Yeah, that makes sense.

Would you say that the reasons why England are so poor is structural rather than the current media speculation blaming boredom/no wags/strict manager (radio 5 on about it again now)?

Until a week ago those very features were England's salvation after Sven's liberal regime lost them the last WC.

There are structural reasons why England are so poor compared to the strength of their league/players, certainly. But this poor, like we saw on Fri night? That's inexplicable.

 

[matt b]

There are structural reasons why England are so poor compared to the strength of their league/players, certainly. But this poor, like we saw on Fri night? That's inexplicable.

As Slim said, it looked like freezing.

Whether it's a fear of making a mistake (players passing rather than shooting in the penalty box), or whether they have been found out (not as good as they thought they were*) is an interesting thing to ponder.

*But then even I know that England's players are better than Algeria's on paper.

 

[scottdisco]

Is Joe Cole the answer?

there's no magic wand, natch, but as i think Jenks said upthread, deploying him as part of a, say, 4-2-3-1 (please) would be a start, because that would indicate Gerrard is going to get more license, we could have two genuinely frightening wide men (well, they have the ability to make a nuisance of themselves, which is more than England have done thus far), etc etc etc.

i know Carrick has not covered himself in glory at United of late, but he does have a deserved reputation for completing ie basics that need doing.

think i'd like to see him and Barry start at the base and remove Lampard entirely. is Milner fully fit again? he does work like a Trojan when 100%.

course don't think i'm alone in saying out of our fit centre-backs Terry and Dawson should definitely be the way forward for the next match.

two games in, played our two weaker keepers, who make more errors than Hart (although James makes less than Green, so that is something, according to those OPTA stats that i think D_Q unearthed).

i was interested in Capello's observation that Rooney's problems are all in his head. could be. that very sober United pal of mine reckons something got a bit crocked in one of their Bayern games and he's heading for a potential op-post WC, possibly, but the coach should know. i'd be intrigued to see what Taggart thinks.

if England stick w 4-4-2, i suppose it's time for Rooney to go, well, certainly in terms of just vs Slovenia. (mind you, it could then be time for all of them to go )

Matt: pretty sure Trevor Brooking does have a lot of influence at the FA tbh, so fingers crossed, slowly slowly etc... ...i'd be very interested to hear what Jenks has to say about youth teams in England actually, given his eldest son plays to what sounds a decent level?

Matt's park anecdotes sound distressingly unsurprising

I'm sure big foreign clubs have had interest in Lampard and Gerrard etc, but for whatever reason the deal never went through...tends to be the English players with exceptional skills who have prospered abroad, such as McManaman and Waddle.

ah, Waddle, ambling through the Milan back four w ease, happy days by the Med

 

[crackerjack]

i know Carrick has not covered himself in glory at United of late, but he does have a deserved reputation for completing ie basics that need doing.

think i'd like to see him and Barry start at the base and remove Lampard entirely. is Milner fully fit again? he does work like a Trojan when 100%.)

carrick wasn't training today, milner was

 

[scottdisco]

lovely idea from Simao on about 44 there, Portugal really should be 2 up at HT.

 

[crackerjack]

Go Tutu

"I had David Beckham here the other day and I told him of our fears. And David Beckham said: 'You know what, a football match is 90 minutes long. Anything can happen. South Africa has already won as it is hosting this World Cup.' And he's right, you know. Remember what has happened to England, Spain, France and Italy. All former winners, all have had perfectly abysmal games. We shouldn't be feeling too bad."

 

[crackerjack]

Apparently this game is being shown live in N Korea, the first time ever - and the last?

Portugal looking good here. It's not just NK naivete.

 

[routes]

why all this clamour for joe cole, it's lame and it's just cos he's mates with all of them. he's ridiculously slow now and has been mostly shit for a couple of seasons. peter crouch is the one they should be calling for cos at least he knows where the flipping goal is and offers a legitimate threat... that is, if anyone can actually remember how to stick a cross in...

 

[crackerjack]

I'm inclined to agree. Can't really see how someone who's just been released by his club is gonna save us all. I thought he was overrated when he was good, and he's hardly played since he came back. A lot of it depends on the feeling that 4-2-3-1 is the system we want, but if Rooney was too unfit to function in a 2-man attack God knows what'll happen in the more demanding role.

 

[jenks]

Matt: pretty sure Trevor Brooking does have a lot of influence at the FA tbh, so fingers crossed, slowly slowly etc... ...i'd be very interested to hear what Jenks has to say about youth teams in England actually, given his eldest son plays to what sounds a decent level?

Matt's park anecdotes sound distressingly unsurprising



ah, Waddle, ambling through the Milan back four w ease, happy days by the Med

Having watched an awful lot of kid's football over the past few years it is quite distressing. My boy is good but never going to be outstanding - he'll always get a game somewhere. However, the quality of coaching is really not very good at all. Most managers/coaches have little actual skill - instead they are either very ambitious dads or dads who have been press ganged into running a side. They play in leagues from about 7-8 and therefore the priority is all about winning football matches over developing skill - in Holland, I have been told, no kid actually plays in league until secondary school. I have friend who coaches Hockey there and they even do things like mix up the home/away sides to get them to play together.

Of course we all have to learn to win and lose but learning to thump it up the field rather than getting defenders to take a touch, develop skill etc becomes secondary. Also kids get quickly pigeon holed - if you look like a striker at 8 that is where you end up for the rest of the season. Passing is something they appear to have to learn by osmosis rather than actually be taught.

At 10 they go on to 11 a side from 7 - complete with off side rules, enormous goals and pitches where the urge to hoof increases as the gap between defenders and goal is so much bigger. of course skills do develop but not in any systematic manner and often with short term effects - i.e long throws rather than throwing back to a man in space.

I remember Ferguson bemoaning the loss of leagues run by the school system - a direct result of teachers refusing to do extra hours in the 80s. With the loss of serious school leagues the gap was filled with these Saturday/Sunday leagues - and the people most apt to train the kids - PE teachers - were no longer involved. Now kids will play for their school but see it as extra football rather than their main football team.

Finally, if you are even slightly any good now there will be an academy sniffing round you - and I think this is the same for all kids' sports - this then devolves onto the parents and whether they are willing to drive across from deepest Essex to Chelsea/Spurs etc. Or they get picked for Southend and then can't play for their schools cos they are told they can only play so much football a week and the Academy comes first.

Maybe I should have started a new thread, this has got a bit long... I could go on.

ahh Waddle, those were the days.

 

[crackerjack]

Really interesting post Jenks.

Reminded me of this piece
http://discussions.ghanaweb.com/viewtopic.php?p=775111&sid=e023b660ce1072bd0fb09048f39ae628

 

[polystyle]

Portugal Vs N Korea

Portugal pouring it on now ... (7- 0)

 

[computer_rock]

i think the point is not that he's an incredible player but rather his inclusion in the team would probably mean that gerrard was no longer playing out of position, and furthermore that the formation would be altered to 4 4 1 1 / 4 2 2 1 1 /whatever you call it.

re: rooney on his own up front. he has said himself that he prefers to play upfront on his own, and has form seems to reflect this

 

[crackerjack]

i think the point is not that he's an incredible player but rather his inclusion in the team would probably mean that gerrard was no longer playing out of position, and furthermore that the formation would be altered to 4 4 1 1 / 4 2 2 1 1 /whatever you call it, something which a lot of people have been wanting for quite a while.

True, but a fit Milner could do the job better IMO.