World Cup 2010

[don_quixote]

there's two (maybe three) kinds of justice in football though

1) justice of refereeing
2) justice of majority of play or positive play
( 3) justice of past transgressions )

portugal fall foul of two of them in the pundit's eyes.

the offside was very marginal.

and i disagree with you in the comparison to argentina and brazil. i LOVE watching spain. watching brazil is horrible.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

there's two (maybe three) kinds of justice in football though

1) justice of refereeing
2) justice of majority of play or positive play
( 3) justice of past transgressions )

portugal fall foul of two of them in the pundit's eyes.

the offside was very marginal.

Well 1) is paramount, 3) is irrelevant (the Portuguese team is not an immutable entity) and 2) depends greatly on the opposition.

Spain dominate possession against nearly everybody else, but this dominance is neither necessarily a sign of overall superiority (Barcelona were inferior to Inter, despite dominating possession) nor necessarily makes for an entertaining spectacle (entertainment is by the by, in any case). Spain's opponents' comparatively poor possession statistics also cannot be taken to be a sign of wilful defensiveness, as Spain's style forces their opponents to play in that way. Anyway, the idea of rewarding 'deserving' but ineffective play by the back door through intentional incompetence in refereeing is just downright wrong - the one thing that all the football powers-to-be still appear to agree on is that a team only gets to prove itself better by scoring the most goals, not winning the most corners, passing the ball sideways more than their opponents etc.

As for the 'positivity' of their possession, Spain's is similar to Barcelona's - it's like watching someone fiddling around endlessly trying different keys in a lock until they chance upon the right one.

 

[don_quixote]

i realise what you are saying, but i'm saying justice and perceived justice can be linked to these, whether irrelevant or not.

3) portugal won't get an easy ride with english pundits due to the antics in 2006

i'm not saying the refereeing was intentionally incompetent. i didn't really feel this was anywhere near a poor refereeing performance. i realise possession stats and the barca/inter thing...

but defensive teams are always going to get a harder ride from tv pundits than attacking teams.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Oh yeah, I agree with you re the pundits' psychology.

And tbf Portugal were intentionally defensive, just as they were at the last two big tournaments when it came to facing up to intimidating opposition, with the same result: no chances, elimination.

 

[don_quixote]

are you saying england aren't intimidating?

what i find interesting about portugal is that after the 'golden generation's last chance' in euro 2004 they've made a quarter final, a semi final and a last 16 - so they're not doing too badly.

 

[scottdisco]

have to agree w the BBC when Lawro opined he couldn't see what Danny on for Almeida brought for Por, particularly. using Almeida was fairly effective in the first, more so than whatever Danny did it seems, although he was busy, granted, and admittedly Portugal were chasing it by around then.
(Pepe had quietened down i thought, so that seemed fair enough. dunno about Simao, he's often inventive, and it's not like his replacement had an impact.)

Torres off, on the other hand, was an easy, smart, and very, very right course of action. Alves had him in the first (he was possibly man of the first half), but was conversely flipped by Llorente later.

bit of rub of the green and that could have been very different tonight. quite like the look of Coentrao, must pay attention to him in future more.

i don't want to sound like some loon flapping after one or two poor showings (OK i am sounding like that, i know), but is Valdes knocking on Casillas' door? i guess not, you'd think he'd keep faith although that's at least two matches he's not really impressed in.

as various people say, Brazilian steel + flair still looking (surely?) the best equipped just for now, although the Dutch haven't had to do anything either whilst still at 100%, which must be a bit ominous too. massive tie right there.

 

[hucks]

i don't want to sound like some loon flapping after one or two poor showings (OK i am sounding like that, i know), but is Valdes knocking on Casillas' door? i guess not, you'd think he'd keep faith although that's at least two matches he's not really impressed in.

Casillas is captain, which must give him more protection. Plus changing goalkeepers is really taboo, as we saw with England...But he's had an average season, not just a couple of games.

Shit, he's only 29! I was away to post, oh he must be getting on by now....

 

[baboon2004]

As for the 'positivity' of their possession, Spain's is similar to Barcelona's - it's like watching someone fiddling around endlessly trying different keys in a lock until they chance upon the right one.

I'd say Barcelona have considerably more cut and thrust though, partly due to youknowwho - and in term of the sides that had their number, Inter were better organised than any side in living memory, and certainly a better team than Switzerland in every way.

Agree that Argentina and Brazil look to certainly have the beating of Spain. Praying that Argentina have the beating of Brazil.

 

[don_quixote]

again, we totally judge the 'beating' of sides versus lesser opposition. argentina have a big test vs germany. brazil have a big test vs holland. paraguay will get 10 men behind the ball again and try and threaten from set pieces and COME ON GHANA!!!

 

[paolo]

oi paolo, did you see my musings on frank lampard a few pages ago?

No, this thread moves too fast. I'll go and have a look

 

[paolo]

maybe paolo (i think) could help me here. at chelsea i get the impression lampard is a linkman. he isn't FORCED to create chances. he works with other players to create chances - he gets the ball, he plays it quickly. whereas at england it seems like he gets the ball, has to stop, think, wonder where the movement is and then either a) gets tackled or b) has to try and force a killer pass out of nothing.

I have no real clue why Lampard is so poor for England. I read in the Guardian that he's had more shots at this World Cup without scoring than any other player ever (39 I think). With Chelsea his role is slightly different and he's usually only got one centre forward in front of him, but he's played in centre midfield there and with two strikers and looked decent. Obviously I can't be sure, but I suspect it's a psychological thing

 

[baboon2004]

again, we totally judge the 'beating' of sides versus lesser opposition. argentina have a big test vs germany. brazil have a big test vs holland. paraguay will get 10 men behind the ball again and try and threaten from set pieces and COME ON GHANA!!!

I agree, and the Argentinians face the bigger test of the two. Still think they'll both be in the semis though (or maybe I just want to see Argentina-Spain too much). Fingers crossed for Ghana.

What puzzles me about England, psychologically-speaking is how Croatia 1-4 England happened (given Croatia's intimidating home record at the time) - was it a dream, or were the Croats appalling? I had such hope at that stage that England were becoming a decent, entertaining side.

 

[IdleRich]

"I have no real clue why Lampard is so poor for England. I read in the Guardian that he's had more shots at this World Cup without scoring than any other player ever (39 I think)."

Just to add insult to injury eh? That was a pretty cracking free kick that hit the bar as well but yeah he was rubbish - but when isn't he rubbish for England? It's more the norm than the exception isn't it?

 

[crackerjack]

i don't want to sound like some loon flapping after one or two poor showings (OK i am sounding like that, i know), but is Valdes knocking on Casillas' door? i guess not, you'd think he'd keep faith although that's at least two matches he's not really impressed in.

Reina is better than either. Perhaps the only Liverpool player who had an unimpeachable season.

Agree that Argentina and Brazil look to certainly have the beating of Spain.

Really not sure about this. Spain would struggle against Brazil's tight defence but have the ability and cohesion to pass Argentina to death.

 

[grizzleb]

Really can't see anyone beating Brazil. Anti-football played by a team of amazingly gifted players is basically unstoppable.

 

[BareBones]

i'm glad Spain won because yes, i do enjoy watching the tic tac tikka masala game. Plus my hatred of Ronaldo is immovable, i find myself clenching my fists tightly and grinding my teeth whenever i see his smug pouting face appear on the screen.

That said, however much they were playing the 'beautiful game', there was some shocking dives from Villa and that red card was unbelievable, i really felt for that portuguese player. Plus definitely a hint of offside about the goal.

Torres looked as clueless as an english premier league player...

 

[grizzleb]

i'm glad Spain won because yes, i do enjoy watching the tic tac tikka masala game. Plus my hatred of Ronaldo is immovable, i find myself clenching my fists tightly and grinding my teeth whenever i see his smug pouting face appear on the screen.

 

[paolo]

Robinho and Landon Donovan have been the best Premier League players

 

[paolo]

Kuyt and Carvalho have been decent

 

[crackerjack]

i'm glad Spain won because yes, i do enjoy watching the tic tac tikka masala game. Plus my hatred of Ronaldo is immovable, i find myself clenching my fists tightly and grinding my teeth whenever i see his smug pouting face appear on the screen.

Oh yes, meant to add that too. But I went looking for his post-CL final interview where he effectively said "don't blame me, blame the manager" - he apparently said much the same yesterday - and forgot. Did I mention that he really is a loathsome cunt?