Hallucinogens Have Doctors Tuning In Again

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droid

Guest
It makes perfect sense in its unsurpassable cynicism. Just think of the way everybody is hooked on "soma" in Aldous Huxley's Brave New World.

Tea said:
Also, isn't the 'soma' a kind of stupifying, vaguely euphoric Valium-like sedative? I've not read BNW but from what I know of it, soma sounds like the exact opposite of a psychedelic.

Oh, and soma is definitively described as a strong psychedelic drug in BNW. By the way, the depiction of the "orgy-porgys" in the same novel is very reminiscent of a night in Berghain or wherever. I honestly believe that in a couple of decades Western society could end up looking very similar to Huxley's dystopian vision.

So there we go. All the references to Soma in this thread explicitly mention Huxley and BNW.

I capitalised it as its the name of the drug, but that could well be incorrect.

Regardless Im sure your gigantic brain could easily have rejected that possible hint of a contradiction given that the context had already been made explicitly clear.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
So there we go. All the references to Soma in this thread explicitly mention Huxley and BNW.

I capitalised it as its the name of the drug, but that could well be incorrect.

Regardless Im sure your gigantic brain could easily have rejected that possible hint of a contradiction given that the context had already been made explicitly clear.

Mr. Tea's quote is exactly why I thought you were talking about the actual drug:

"Also, isn't the 'soma' a kind of stupifying, vaguely euphoric Valium-like sedative?"

Since the real Soma is very closely related to Valium chemically, but the soma in the book is more of a "feel-good" serotonin-like drug, I thought maybe the convo had switched to Soma.

Why is that a big deal? What is so strange about that. Why are you making a big deal about it?
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Why would it matter if I combed through every post, anyway?

My initial posts were very clearly responding to lanugo's post from very early in the thread, not yours, so just get a grip on yourself.

Meanwhile, my "generalizations" still haven't been pointed out. Because I didn't make any.
 
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droid

Guest
Mr. Tea's quote is exactly why I thought you were talking about the actual drug:



Since the real Soma is very closely related to Valium chemically, but the soma in the book is more of a "feel-good" serotonin-like drug, I thought maybe the convo had switched to Soma.

Why is that a big deal? What is so strange about that. Why are you making a big deal about it?

He explicitly mentions BNW in the same sentence.

You wouldnt have to comb through the thread, Soma, BNW and Huxley are mentioned in the fifth line.
 
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
I know he did. Then you mentioned Soma, so I thought people were talking about benzodiazepines.

It's not that weird of a mistake to make. I've slept 3 hours. I had a math final exam and an electrochemisty exam today, on 3 hours sleep. I'm hungry. My back hurts from sitting and studying for the past 2 weeks all day every day, living on junk food, and 2 hours of sleep per night. But I have to keep going, because I still have another exam tomorrow, and I have to pack up a whole room. I'm exhausted.

I'm ever so sorry that I responded to lanugo before carefully pouring over the entire message board thread, inadvertantly misreading a reference in the process.

Oh noes! The internet is going to collapse.
 
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droid

Guest
I know he did. Then you mentioned Soma, so I thought people were talking about benzodiazepines.

It's not that weird of a mistake to make. I've slept 3 hours. I had a math final exam and an electrochemisty exam today, on 3 hours sleep. I'm hungry. My back hurts from sitting and studying for the past 2 weeks all day every day, living on junk food, and 2 hours of sleep per night. But I have to keep going, because I still have another exam tomorrow, and I have to pack up a whole room. I'm exhausted.

Then what on earth are you doing talking shit on the internet for? Go to bed.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Then what on earth are you doing talking shit on the internet for? Go to bed.

Can't. I have an exam tomorrow, that I am studying for, followed by an appt in another city, then I have to pack a bunch of stuff for a move by saturday morning.
 

lanugo

von Verfall erzittern
nomad, even your impressively comprehensive knowledge of biology doesn't make you omniscient. It's ridiculous how you pretend to be able explain every single facet of life with a reference to a scientific study. When you cry "Citations please!", which has become your catch phrase on this forum, one is reminded of a bible freak demanding a statement to be verified according to what is written in the Holy Scripture. Sad truth: Your scientific orthodoxy is dogmatism of the worst kind. You seem to have the very same desire for an explainable, orderly world as the religiously- or otherwise "regressively"-minded people you so wholeheartedly despise.

Also, I wonder whether your radically medicalised understanding of human behaviour isn't in fact secretly contemptuous towards those inflicted with conditions such as depression. What about the subjective dimension of this state of mind? Is every perception, observation, apprehension or thought of a depressed person merely a symptom of an unbalanced brain chemistry? Is everything you feel when you're sad irreal? Should all the great artists better have been prescribed antidepressants instead of writing The Waste Land or painting The Scream?
 

luka

Well-known member
not mcuh evidence of dissolved egos here, makes me want to dip into my liquid acid stash though.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
For heaven's sake, I log off for five minutes and look what happens...

*liberally dispenses cigarettes and Quaaludes*

I think this at least had the potential to be an interesting thread before it got derailed. I'd like to ask lanugo how he thinks the psychedelic experience could be easily co-opted by or integrated into capitalist society when, and I think most people who've had such experinces would agree, it opens up avenues of thought that are completely orthogonal to anything conducive to consumerism and general social conformity.

I'd also like to reiterate the question I asked on the first page: what, in and of itself, is so bad about trying to reduce depression and unhappiness?
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Your scientific orthodoxy is dogmatism of the worst kind. You seem to have the very same desire for an explainable, orderly world as the religiously- or otherwise "regressively"-minded people you so wholeheartedly despise.

not speaking to what was said here in the thread (pedantic debates about etymology:rolleyes:) but speaking more generally the entire point of science is inquiry and, by extension, uncertainty. there is no implied desire for an "orderly" world, simply to describe the world as it is (that is, anything but orderly, laws of thermodynamics etc aside). the line about scientific "orthodoxy" echoing religious dogmatism - in addition to being very, very tired - encompasses a quite superficial reading of both.

calling for citations on a message board is a bit ridiculous, but that has to do with the nature of message boards rather than the nature of citations.

Is every perception, observation, apprehension or thought of a depressed person merely a symptom of an unbalanced brain chemistry? Is everything you feel when you're sad irreal? Should all the great artists better have been prescribed antidepressants instead of writing The Waste Land or painting The Scream?

A better way to put it, and a way that many people (including nomad) have put it before is that any mental illness (any mental state, really) is almost certainly multifactorial, with both genes and neurochemistry - the former having a large role in dictating the latter for an individual - playing an important but not a sole causal role. no one is denying the prominence of environmental factors (which include, amongst other things, alienation due to social atomization of the consumer society, and so on).

the rest of that is a particularly fallacious strawman. to say that emotional states are largely governed by biological factors is not to say that those feelings are "irreal". nor is it to suggest that all should be medicated to some kind of bland normality (presumably what you're getting at), though I do want to say that making claims about mental illness or similar as a product of capitalism - in the style of k-punk & "the fear", or the SPK - is treacherous ground, not least because it misappropriates the nature of capitalism, i.e. as a kind of ersatz personalized catchall to blame for depression, schizophrenia, what have you, rather than a subsuming social/political/economic/etc force.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
also, count my vote for those who are (highly) skeptical about the liberating power or revolutionary potential or however you want to put it of psychedelics. as revelatory personal experience, sure. as a medical treatment, defintely worth exploring at the very least. but as an "ego death", especially leading to a break with "capitalism", not so much. I mean, snake oil salesmen were peddling that line, if differently worded, to lost teenagers almost half a century ago - I believe Hunter S. nailed it with that bit about Leary etc loaded all these people up with liberatory dreams that nearly overnight turned into nightmares while the self-proclaimed prophets f**ked off to their book tours and whatever else. I mean, there's the practical matter - drugs always mean dodgy business means gangsters means the PLUR vibes get extinguished pretty fast. there's also the fact that it's just a drug - speaking from personal experience, it wears off and then you're still stuck with the same squalid reality.

the biggest danger, in terms of politics, may be that drugs - even the "good" ones (pot, hash, psychedelics, E I guess, as opposed to speed, heroin, coke etc) - often encourage retreat into oneself and away from any kind of confrontation with real things, which has killed off more than one promising movement. queue up someone to tell me about how drugs radicalize people - color me skeptical again, as the great majority of drug use is apolitical and/or nihilistic, which is understandable but certainly not liberatory. I never liked dogmatic straight edge kids - still don't - but I do think there's something to the idea that (recreational) drugs are more of a crutch than anything else. this kinda renders the matter of cooptation of the "psychedelic experience" moot, though assuming there was such a thing then I'd have to agree w/lanugo that it would likely be reincorporated with great speed, given capitalism's lethal efficiency in recuperation of any radical critique. actually, the fact that that psychedelics haven't been recuperated to a greater degree suggests of itself the lack of a threat they pose.

my .02, anyway.
 

grizzleb

Well-known member
In continuing the theme re: Tea's request, to play devils advocate for a bit - I'd like to maybe question the actual supposed depth of the hallucinogenic experience. In my experience it can be quite often used as just some vapid, lacking-in-depth 'voyage', where any actual questioning of ones environment, experience, etc is 'done for you' by x substance. Tripping as just the appearance of spirituality/quest rather than actual practise.

And also, the biggest trippers I've known have been totally the most egotistical people I've known too...Is there anything more egotistic than the fetishization of ones subjective experience? Say what you want about 'the dissolution of boundaries maaan', experience always happens to an individual, even if it is only reconstituted that way after the fact. I don't ever recall, in the less than a dozen times I took hallucinogens thinking 'wow this is what other people feel like' or whatever, it was usually 'oh fuck x and y crazy thought process'.

Just a coupla thoughts 2 keep dis rollin' init.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Some great points from both of you there, I think.

I should make clear that I certainly don't subscribe to this notion that if everyone just tripped hard enough, Kapital would somehow come crashing down and we'd all live in peace and harmony with flowers in our hair for ever more. I've come across this notion before and find it rather sophomoric, to say nothing of naive. It's even directly contradicted by historical evidence; the best counterexample being the Aztec empire, which was a tyrannical and warlike theocracy that specialised in mass human sacrifices, yet they took psilocybin mushrooms, peyote, morning glory seeds, all kinds of crazy shit. Or at least, the nobility and priesthood - which is to say, the people who presided over and conducted the sacrifices - did. The Aztecs were about as hippy as the Third Reich.

The position I'm holding is just that it sounds like it could be very helpful to some people, on a purely personal basis, to take drugs like these in a supervised setting as part of a course of clinical treatment. And my own experience backs this up, in fact; I remember after one particularly heavy mushroom trip feeling like my brain had been "reformatted" the next morning, and I felt saner and happier than I had for some time - not that I'd felt myself to be especially stressed or depressed before hand, but all the same, in retrospect it makes me think that such an experience could be very valuable to someone with real emotional or psychiatric problems. I think ecstasy (as opposed to 'proper' psychedelics per se) was very popular among therapists before it was scheduled in the '80s, especially for treating patients with PTSD. The quote that sticks in my head is the one from a therapist or psychiatrist who said he'd seen patients "make more progress in one session with MDMA than in six months of conventional therapy".

But as I said, this is all about trying to help people overcome their own difficulties rather than attempting to bring about some society-wide upheaval than will topple The System. I'd agree with padraig that if you're a serious revolutionary, you're probably better off going about it with a straight head.

In answer to grizzleb's point about the egotism of subjective experiences (devil's avocado, sure), I think you could counter it possibly by saying that a really heavy psychedelic experience can be a great leveller, imparting a fundamentally similar level of experience to people regardless of their personal background and native culture? Though I admit this is a sort of devil's-defence-brief (or should that be "angel's"?) response to your devil's-advocate argument. Having said that, I've certainly read 'trip reports' by people I've never met and found they mention startlingly similar subjective states to things I've experienced, to the extent that this kind of experience can be described in words. Then there's the whole club/party/field-full-of-people-on-E thing which is very collective as opposed to individualised, and while it may have been tarnished by association with those appalling candy-raver knob-ends, it's worth remembering that it can be a very profound collective experience and you don't have to dress up like a futuristic day-glo twat to be a part of it.
 

grizzleb

Well-known member
Yeah, I agree with much of that, Tea. I was going to mention that I'd say E was probably more of a drug that I could see being praiseworthy in a social/political context... I reckon it's hard to be an arsehole when you are horsed off good MDMA giving everycunt in the room a smile and a wink. I've heard of studies from even really recently where there is much progress made with PTSD patients. Makes sense, and hopefully it will be recognized more in future.

And yeah, I'm sure that there's situations where peoples outlooks could be altered from the better from taking some sort of narcotic substances... It's the utopian shit that is a part of drugs culture that I find funny, you hear it from time to time..."everyone needs to chiiilll maaaan" etc etc etc

But more broadly, I'd like to see a culture where drugs use isn't frowned upon, where taking drugs can be an acceptable part of being a person. Give people a bit of responsibility. What if an individual who had ptsd could just go out to the shops and get some E? That would be good, regardless of whether they went and crushed da system. For some people even being able to face up to it, to not feel forced to shrink back is enough of a positive effect to be worthy...I'm sure.

(Playing devils egg-nog here ;))
 
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droid

Guest
Yeah, what Tea said. I made no claims for the 'radicalisation' potential of psychedleics, simply that I dont believe they could be easily co-opted as reinforcers or enablers of behavioural norms, though there is certainly an interesting conversation to be had there.

AFAIC if I was a dictator with an interest in chemistry - LSD, Psyclobin etc... would be the last drugs on my soma list if I wanted a relatively docile population. I can see the potential as tools for control in almost everything else, from opiates to amphetamines as well as MDMA, tobacco, alcohol, weed etc... but the only uses I could see for psychedlics would be maybe to obliterate the minds of politcial deviants through the application of gigantic doses (like they did to black prisoners in the US in the 50's).
 
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