Dissensus Best of 2011 Discussion

continuum

smugpolice
Dan Hancox list is quite interesting

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2011/dec/16/albums-2011-critics-voted?fb=optOut

Albums

1. Rustie – Glass Swords
2. Beyonce – 4
3. L-Vis 1990 – Neon Dreams
4. Low – C'Mon
5. Terius Nash – 1977
6. Katy B – On A Mission
7. Boy Better Know – Tropical 2
8. PJ Harvey – Let England Shake
9. Lil B The Based God – I'm Gay
10. Sully - Carrier

Tracks

1. Ill Blu – Meltdown
2. Mosca – Done Me Wrong
3. Lea-Anna – Kisses
4. Beyonce – Best Thing I Never Had
5. Rustie – Ultra Thizz
6. Rihanna – Man Down
7. Popcaan – Ravin'
8. Hudson Mohawke and Chris Brown – Real Hip Hop Shit
9. Contakt – Not Forgotten
10. Mavado – All Dem Ah Talk
 

benw

Well-known member
That last paragraph definitely sums up how I feel about Retromania SecondLine, which I'm currently reading... he is very persuasive, and it's excellently researched. but at the end of the day if what you're listening to is pure retro-mania to him / in other words has any kind of backward looking influences BUT you love it and think it's new and interesting then it doesn't matter... does it? i certainly dont think so. cue that old pastiche of everyone being influenced by someone/thing....
 

Blackdown

nexKeysound
yes as you say this is subjective but this is surely a fairly limited view of the art of DJing? your perspective seems to be that the only point in downloading or listening to a mix is to hear 100% tunes you've never heard before. which leads to you making the assumption that the djs are assuming their audience hasn't heard these older records before...

I'll be honest, it is the point of it in most cases for me. I get sent loads of "hey check my mix..." emails with a mix of the top 10 released tunes from the previous six months in them and I never download them, I'm looking for the new. Limited viewpoint? Perhaps... I guess I'm aware of the other ways of looking at DJing, have weighed them up and decided they're not as important to me. Hence why I flagged the subjectivity from the off.

perhaps it's because i come from a house/techno angle and i'm not always looking for the next new thing but i enjoy listening to my favourite djs play records i'm already familiar with - to hear what they do with them, how they contextualise them, how they use them. for example, hearing ben ufo mix with older records i've heard plenty of times before is always an inspiration and exciting because he brings them in at unexpected junctures, mixes with them in a completely different way to anyone else i've ever heard, makes old favourites sounds new again (and ultimately makes me want to go and have a mix myself!).

Honestly, I think this "mix them in a completely new way" angle is totally over rated. What happened, did the DJ change the key mid way through, mix if out of phaze? Pitch bend both tunes at once? Maybe there are "completely new" ways of blending 4/4 techno records but my feeling is production and remixing are far more powerful vectors of innovation and change (supporting evidence: I've tried all three...). Blending two records together is far far more constrained in its reach. Even Ableton pisses on straight DJing, in its ability to change arrangements and create juxtapositions (again: I've tried it).

anyway, i am coming at this from completely the opposite perspective to you - i'm most excited about finding stuff from fifteen years ago that sounds like it could have been made yesterday... the concept of 'future' (or time/progress in general) means little to me these days (at least applied to music)

I think this says more about the mediocrity and homogeneity of much of the housey, post dubstep, techno-ish stuff in 2011 than it does about the genius of having old and new records being mixed together and it not being clear if if its been made now or in 1995. I'm less concerned about "future" than worrying that "now" has no identity. You couldnt say that about techno made in 87 or jungle in 93, grime in 03 or dubstep in 06.
 

alex

Do not read this.
best producers: Kerri Chandler, Bok Bok, Ian Pooley, Quell, Jamie Jones, Huxley & Rosso.. sure there's more, but these stand out for me atm.

best release: surely nothing beats vigalante season?
 

Joey Joe-Joe Jr. Shabadoo

Well-known member
I'll be honest, it is the point of it in most cases for me. I get sent loads of "hey check my mix..." emails with a mix of the top 10 released tunes from the previous six months in them and I never download them, I'm looking for the new. Limited viewpoint? Perhaps... I guess I'm aware of the other ways of looking at DJing, have weighed them up and decided they're not as important to me. Hence why I flagged the subjectivity from the off.



Honestly, I think this "mix them in a completely new way" angle is totally over rated. What happened, did the DJ change the key mid way through, mix if out of phaze? Pitch bend both tunes at once? Maybe there are "completely new" ways of blending 4/4 techno records but my feeling is production and remixing are far more powerful vectors of innovation and change (supporting evidence: I've tried all three...). Blending two records together is far far more constrained in its reach. Even Ableton pisses on straight DJing, in its ability to change arrangements and create juxtapositions (again: I've tried it).



I think this says more about the mediocrity and homogeneity of much of the housey, post dubstep, techno-ish stuff in 2011 than it does about the genius of having old and new records being mixed together and it not being clear if if its been made now or in 1995. I'm less concerned about "future" than worrying that "now" has no identity. You couldnt say that about techno made in 87 or jungle in 93, grime in 03 or dubstep in 06.

they're only mixes, stop taking it so seriously
 

UFO over easy

online mahjong
I'll be honest, it is the point of it in most cases for me. I get sent loads of "hey check my mix..." emails with a mix of the top 10 released tunes from the previous six months in them and I never download them, I'm looking for the new. Limited viewpoint? Perhaps... I guess I'm aware of the other ways of looking at DJing, have weighed them up and decided they're not as important to me. Hence why I flagged the subjectivity from the off.



Honestly, I think this "mix them in a completely new way" angle is totally over rated. What happened, did the DJ change the key mid way through, mix if out of phaze? Pitch bend both tunes at once? Maybe there are "completely new" ways of blending 4/4 techno records but my feeling is production and remixing are far more powerful vectors of innovation and change (supporting evidence: I've tried all three...). Blending two records together is far far more constrained in its reach. Even Ableton pisses on straight DJing, in its ability to change arrangements and create juxtapositions (again: I've tried it).

think this all rests on an absurdly limiting view of what DJing can be. it's not just about how you mix two specific records together, just as the production of a track isn't just about what presets you choose - oneman wasn't successful because he did that one stone cold/forgive blend really well - he was successful because he built an individual aesthetic around what he did and created atmosphere that lasted the entire duration of his sets.

in any case, comparing production, DJing and live performance in terms of their capacity to innovate misses the point for me completely. they are different things, and you can achieve different things with them.

fwiw i've tried ableton too, and decided it makes even unusual juxtapositions sound homogeneous and washed out - this is not to say that people don't do interesting things with it, but in my experience those who use it effectively tend to build fairly limiting parameters for their performances into the software eg kode 9/portable performing and rearranging their own music as opposed to using it as some kind of all powerful mash-up tool
 

rrrivero

Well-known member
I like what DJ Zhao does with it in his Fusion mixes, even if it isn't all that impressive in terms of DJ'ing.
 

Esp

Well-known member
think this all rests on an absurdly limiting view of what DJing can be. it's not just about how you mix two specific records together, just as the production of a track isn't just about what presets you choose - oneman wasn't successful because he did that one stone cold/forgive blend really well - he was successful because he built an individual aesthetic around what he did and created atmosphere that lasted the entire duration of his sets.

This ties into my hatred and dependence on tracklists when choosing whether or not to listen to a mix. They are like plot spoilers in a way, they take away a big part of the enjoyment you get from hearing a DJ live. Having said that they are almost always the one thing that will make me listen to a mix by a DJ I hadn't previously checked. A boring tracklist, inevitably, is one that only contains music you've already heard.

I wish more nights would do digital tape packs. Tape packs were great because you get your headliners with the big, upfront tunes but you also get the warm-up DJs that the night deemed good enough to give a chance. I used to love it when the stand out tape was some local DJ I hadnt heard of. It would always be the last tape I listened to after I'd rinsed all the others though. In the internet era I would probably have checked the tracklist of that DJ and decided not to bother.
 

Elijah

Butterz
I wish more nights would do digital tape packs. Tape packs were great because you get your headliners with the big, upfront tunes but you also get the warm-up DJs that the night deemed good enough to give a chance. I used to love it when the stand out tape was some local DJ I hadnt heard of. It would always be the last tape I listened to after I'd rinsed all the others though. In the internet era I would probably have checked the tracklist of that DJ and decided not to bother.

 

SecondLine

Well-known member
Honestly, I think this "mix them in a completely new way" angle is totally over rated. What happened, did the DJ change the key mid way through, mix if out of phaze? Pitch bend both tunes at once? Maybe there are "completely new" ways of blending 4/4 techno records but my feeling is production and remixing are far more powerful vectors of innovation and change (supporting evidence: I've tried all three...). Blending two records together is far far more constrained in its reach. Even Ableton pisses on straight DJing, in its ability to change arrangements and create juxtapositions (again: I've tried it).

With the utmost respect Blackdown I think your perspective on this is reflected in your shows, in that you showcase a huge amount of new/unreleased/relatively unknown music, and the showcasing of that music is clearly the priority, as opposed to creating a joined up/coherent mix per se (not saying you can't do coherent mixes, I've heard you do that too). I guess you could argue that that's a way of subordinating DJing to production, using it as a tool to showcase individual tracks rather than focussing on the mix-as-artwork in its own right.

Personally, I love finding new music, but given the choice I would usually prefer tuning in to a show where I know it's gonna be a really exciting and enlightening mix, rather than finding a handful of individual tracks which really do it for me.
 

rrrivero

Well-known member
The best shows are the ones that provide a great mix along with a few bangin unknowns. Anyway this is getting very off topic now isn't it
 

Blackdown

nexKeysound
think this all rests on an absurdly limiting view of what DJing can be. it's not just about how you mix two specific records together, just as the production of a track isn't just about what presets you choose - oneman wasn't successful because he did that one stone cold/forgive blend really well - he was successful because he built an individual aesthetic around what he did and created atmosphere that lasted the entire duration of his sets.

Obviously one of the core aims of DJing is to create an aesthetic, that's exactly what I'm saying, it's just that from a personal perspective if a DJ's aesthetic is to give me records I already mostly know or sound like ones I already have, mixing them together isn't a powerful enough differentiator from just listening to the records for me. I often have those records and I could mix them together: why should I pay someone to do it for me?

whereas using mixing to then blend an upfront selection of music I didn't yet know I wanted but now find I do by the way they're being mixed and presented, well that's infinitely more compelling as an experience, for me at least. it's not an "absurdly" limited view on DJing, its a position based on experience of many of the myriad ways of DJing and considering their merits and intentions.

I make no bones that my interests are in DJs who can make people dance, blow their minds and push music forward. there are other motives for DJs: anthem bashing for crowd reaction, proof of technical prowess (hello sasha!), consolidation of their ego (hello tiesto!) but these bore me, in clubs.


in any case, comparing production, DJing and live performance in terms of their capacity to innovate misses the point for me completely. they are different things, and you can achieve different things with them.

well in 2011/12, when DJing is increasingly being simplified by technology (mixers with tempo lock, CDs that tell you the speed, tracktor & ableton-as-dj-tool that lock the phaze of records), DJing is increasingly converging with live performance, i was soundly reminded of this last year when I went to San Fran and told no one bothers with anything but Ableton anymore. not my preference but how things are going

fwiw i've tried ableton too, and decided it makes even unusual juxtapositions sound homogeneous and washed out - this is not to say that people don't do interesting things with it, but in my experience those who use it effectively tend to build fairly limiting parameters for their performances into the software eg kode 9/portable performing and rearranging their own music as opposed to using it as some kind of all powerful mash-up tool

agree with you on this one. it's lack of dynamic range in the mix makes everything quite lifeless. best used as a live remix tool, rather than making it try and be decks.
 

Blackdown

nexKeysound
With the utmost respect Blackdown I think your perspective on this is reflected in your shows, in that you showcase a huge amount of new/unreleased/relatively unknown music, and the showcasing of that music is clearly the priority, as opposed to creating a joined up/coherent mix per se (not saying you can't do coherent mixes, I've heard you do that too). I guess you could argue that that's a way of subordinating DJing to production, using it as a tool to showcase individual tracks rather than focussing on the mix-as-artwork in its own right.

well, we actually have spent quite a lot of time working on coordinating our structure and flow for the show, it's actually very important to me. if we threw random tracks on and edge rolled everything in a very disjointed way it would annoy me a lot. instead we try and curate from ~600 or so tracks a month, then arrange them on the fly in a strict b2b for 2 hours. we try make sure the sections (130/uk funky -> 2step, darker dubstep -> synthy stuff -> grime etc) are coherent but have a flow - guess that doesn't come across to you.

we could play the same big tunes each month but we're in the podcast/youtube era of accessibility, so the way i see it is people can access last month's show at the click of a button, why waste their time with some of the same tunes when you can give them freshness and they can go and replay earlier shows if they want to?
 

yyaldrin

in je ogen waait de wind
I just made a short 15 minute mix as preparation for tonight, I love ableton!

If anyone is interested: donovan-mmix.mp3 - 13.51MB

Kanye West - Coldest winter
Zomby - Ice Lake
Slackk - Eski clicks
The Dream - Used to be
Young smoke - Wouldn't get far
Kanye West - Flashlight (DJ Rashad edit)
Morgan Zarate - Hookid
 

UFO over easy

online mahjong
Blackdown said:
Obviously one of the core aims of DJing is to create an aesthetic, that's exactly what I'm saying, it's just that from a personal perspective if a DJ's aesthetic is to give me records I already mostly know or sound like ones I already have, mixing them together isn't a powerful enough differentiator from just listening to the records for me. I often have those records and I could mix them together: why should I pay someone to do it for me?

one of the things i like about going to see DJs like prosumer, or any of the best DJs from that scene, is there is a different kind of competition between those guys than we have had traditionally over here. there is a drive to out-dig everyone else, to know your history and find the amazing record from 1991 that no one's played for 15 years alongside the new stuff. it's a different way of thinking about DJing, and it feeds into the music people make. that mindset is creeping in here, not as a replacement but in addition to what we already have. last time i went to hard wax, torsten was enthusing about seeing cool record orders from producers and being able to hear those sounds impacting on productions almost straight away. the results of that will sometimes verge on tribute or sound throwaway, but in general i think that kind of curiosity is ace.

i guess the main point of difference between us is your not being that interested in hearing records that "sound like ones you already have"... not because i actively want to hear familiar sounding records all the time, but because i have explored so much in the already fairly limited scope of what i like to DJ, and i still hear records all the time that excite me. i like hearing producers who find ways to make variations on established themes exciting

we could play the same big tunes each month but we're in the podcast/youtube era of accessibility, so the way i see it is people can access last month's show at the click of a button, why waste their time with some of the same tunes when you can give them freshness and they can go and replay earlier shows if they want to?

with you on this, definitely
 
Last edited:
Top