WOW didn't know that

[zhao]

Origin of US "duple" rhythm

we have one of these threads in the THOUGHT forum, might be cool to have one about muisc as well? i'll start:

just learnt this, and not saying it's 100% accurate or in any way a complete picture, but fascinating none the less:

as a result of West African slaves in S. Carolina and other states organizing revolts via the language of the talking drums in the 1700s, and the masters realizing this, drums were banned. Thus N. American slave music became increasingly focused on vocals, chanting, work songs, leading to a drastically different evolutionary path compared to slave music in S. America and the Caribbean. This is a big reason why Afro-American music sounds so different from Afro-Latin, Afro-Caribbean, and of course African music -- the drums are missing, and rhythm was channeled into other means of experession. This of course deeply influenced all music which came after -- all the way down to hiphop: the beat is so simple, as if just to mark time, and all the intricate poly-rhythmic patterns are done with vocals.

 

[muser]

thats very interesting and does make alot of sense, never really thought about the differences in north american afro musical lineage vs other colonies. Would love some more info on the organizing revolts from talking drums if you have some links?

 

[muser]

I recently discovered that Roy Orbison was not infact blind

 

[you]

we have one of these threads in the THOUGHT forum, might be cool to have one about muisc as well? i'll start:

just learnt this, and not saying it's 100% accurate or in any way a complete picture, but fascinating none the less:

as a result of West African slaves in S. Carolina and other states organizing revolts via the language of the talking drums in the 1700s, and the masters realizing this, drums were banned. Thus N. American slave music became increasingly focused on vocals, chanting, work songs, leading to a drastically different evolutionary path compared to slave music in S. America and the Caribbean. This is a big reason why Afro-American music sounds so different from Afro-Latin, Afro-Caribbean, and of course African music -- the drums are missing, and rhythm was channeled into other means of experession. This of course deeply influenced all music which came after -- all the way down to hiphop: the beat is so simple, as if just to mark time, and all the intricate poly-rhythmic patterns are done with vocals.

is that a quote? From where?

 

[zhao]

is that a quote? From where?

it's a condensed paraphrase, from a very knowledgeable friend of mine...

 

[you]

ha - does this friend have a book or a blog? I want to know more

PM me if better

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

@zhao - no offense to you + yr friend, but even w/a disclaimer that seems like a serious oversimplification. for one, the drums in a great deal of afro-american music are highly poly-rhythmic. for another, how do afro-caribbean/latin/etc + african music sound any more like each other than like black american music? what about the longstanding back + forth between afro-american + caribbean music? + so on + so on.

i'm not saying there's no truth to it at all, but tracing musical lineage back hundreds of years is iffy at best (the same is true for any type of ethnography). in the early 90s people tried to connect rap to west african griots.

 

[grizzleb]

Where's this polyrythmic hip-hop?

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

^freestyle fellowship

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

no but most rap really. kool moe dee was using internal rhyme schemes as early as '81. double-time flows. rza rhyming completely off the beat in any given wu song.

i'm saying just poly-rhythmic drums are an overwhelming feature of black american music. even house + disco have layers of percussion under the steady kick.

 

[zhao]

the drums in a great deal of afro-american music are highly poly-rhythmic.

relatively to Afro-Caribbean and Afro-Latin and African music, this is simply, empirically false.

how do afro-caribbean/latin/etc + african music sound any more like each other than like black american music?

Afro Carib and Afro Latin sounds a LOT more like eachother than Afro N. American music. do i have to cite examples? isn't this completely obvious to anyone who has ever heard music from these places?

what about the longstanding back + forth between afro-american + caribbean music?

during the exchange, N. American sounds have always had an influence on Caribbean and Latin music toward LESS polyrhythmic complexity. Look at the influence of Funk and Soul on Calypso/Reggae.

tracing musical lineage back hundreds of years is iffy at best (the same is true for any type of ethnography).

so there is just no point in historical analysis or ethnography or anthropology is what you are saying? but that's clearly absurd.

 

[zhao]

no but most rap really. kool moe dee was using internal rhyme schemes as early as '81. double-time flows. rza rhyming completely off the beat in any given wu song.

exactly my point. please to read original post again.

even house + disco have layers of percussion under the steady kick.

the steady kick is MUCH more prominent in disco and house compared to any Caribbean or Latin styles. thats because Afro-Caribbean and Afro-Latin music retained more of the rhythmic complexity of African traditions, compared to Afro-N.American music.

consider Rumba, Mambo, old school Cumbia, old school Afro-Brazillian styles, later day hybrid Latin styles like Salsa - the Congas and Bongos are integral, much more poly-rhythmic.

even Reggae, which itself was very simplified from earlier Jamaican (West African) drumming traditions, having been influenced by a lot of music from N. America, is relatively more percussive and rhythmically complex.

so there must be some reasons. and the banning of drums in N.America, provided enough historical evidence supports such a theory, would make a good reason, maybe one of the main reasons.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

so there is just no point in historical analysis or ethnography or anthropology is what you are saying?

seriously zhao? of course that's not what I'm saying. how could anyone possibly take that from what I wrote? I'm saying it's problematic to make huge sweeping generalizations b/c history is complicated + multidirectional. which isn't a very controversial thing to say i'd think but you seem to be taking offense. no, I don't agree with you that all afro-caribbean + latin + etc music is vastly more poly-rhythmic than all black american music just b/c you say it is "completely obvious" or condescend to me about nyabinghi + congas. go tell that to clyde stubblefield or elvin jones.

but look, whatever. I was just bringing up some points. I was very clearly not taking swipes at you or your buddy or saying you were wrong. if you want to be a massive jerk about it, more power to you.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

you also misread what i said about rap, but since there is apparently no point trying to talk to you about this, whatever.

 

[grizzleb]

looooooool didn't take long for this thread

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

i think zhao is talking more about black popular music in the US rather than something like jazz and drummers like elvin jones. but i would prob agree that there is more rhythmic complexity in music from west africa and latin america than from the US. just compare something like fela to james brown even. or listen to brazilian samba from the 70s compared to soul from the same period. there is def more going on in that department.

 

[Slothrop]

And a lot of jazz drummers were very much aware of other diasporic traditions and consciously drawing on them...

Although the fact that this sort of thing goes on all the time - jazz / boogie / soul being formative influences in ska and reggae, reggae having a considerable impact on early hip hop, the interchange of ideas between US and latin jazz and between latin jazz and west africa and then the world and his dog coming up with local flavours of hip hop and house - is part of the reason I'd be a bit nervous about straightforward determinism based on ancestral history...

It's an interesting idea though.

 

[Trillhouse]

This theory also seems to completely omit the influence of the musical cultures of those who were keeping slaves in various parts of the Americas. The marching and oom-pah-pah bands, that had such an influence on the beginnings of jazz, have very basic rhythmic structures. Compare those to the Spanish or Italian music of the time and you'll find a similar gulf.

In general the Northern Europeans were very keen on seeing Africans as a subspecies that needed to be brought up to their level by eradicating their culture and replacing it with their own. The Southern Europeans had a slightly different take on racism, as understandably due to their geographical location, their culture's were already mixed with and influenced by Africa.

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

pretty sure irish sea chanties had a pretty strong influence on black american music too.

 

[zhao]

yes perhaps more direct contact with European music in N.America compared to relatively little in S. American and Caribbean (not sure if this is true though?) would have had an influence on the development of relatively simpler rhythm structures.

Besides comparing formal qualities between James Brown and Fela Kuti, which just seems so obvious when it comes to rhythm, isn't it curious that CONGAS and BONGOS were somehow missing from N. American work songs, jazz, blues, gospel, funk, etc., while these drums are to this day, and have always been, an integral part of Afro-Caribbean and Afro-Latin music?