Ukraine, Russia etc.

Slothrop

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
AFAICT most Western - and particularly EU - Governments are taking the line that of Russia doesn't have a word with itself PDQ them they're definitely going to do some fairly serious thinking about maybe imposing some sort of economic and/or diplomatic sanctions that will be so serious that they're pretty definitely going to make Russia think twice about what they're doing. But probably not so serious that they'll make Russia think twice about supplying oil and gas to most of Europe. Or make Russian oligarchs pull out their investment in our economies. Or damage international trade in general. Obviously we're thoroughly committed to our support for national sovereignty, but we wouldn't want to do anything rash, now, would we...

So I think all-out thermonuclear heck is probably a fair way off.
 
Slothrop

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
The UK currently has approx 20,000 troops stationed in Germany, but there's probably be some controversy if they started blockading airports.

The setup of the interim government in Kiev is interesting though. I wasn't paying enough attention when Yanukovych was outed - how strong actually is their claim to legitimacy, and what's the basis for Putin's talk about "neo-fascists, ultra-nationalists and anti-semites"? Presumably it's not an all-out neo-nazi coup, but it seems like an odd thing to make up entirely, and the likes of Svoboda don't seem to be particularly nice, something which is (perhaps unsurprisingly) passed over in most of the western media...
 
droid

droid

Well-known member
There was a reasonably strong nazi presence in the demonstrations, and 4 nazi member of the the new government AFAIK.
 
C

crackerjack

Well-known member
Slothrop said:
The UK currently has approx 20,000 troops stationed in Germany, but there's probably be some controversy if they started blockading airports.

The setup of the interim government in Kiev is interesting though. I wasn't paying enough attention when Yanukovych was outed - how strong actually is their claim to legitimacy, and what's the basis for Putin's talk about "neo-fascists, ultra-nationalists and anti-semites"? Presumably it's not an all-out neo-nazi coup, but it seems like an odd thing to make up entirely, and the likes of Svoboda don't seem to be particularly nice, something which is (perhaps unsurprisingly) passed over in most of the western media...
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There's been a fair bit of attention paid to far-right involvement, especially during the revolution itself. There's obviously issues around it and the far-right holding 6 (I think) ministries - but pretty clear the revolution had popular support. And the bottom line is Yanukovych brought out snipers to murder protestors in the centre of Kiev.

edit: more on the far right here http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-control-its-far-right-ultranationalists.html

edit again: Meant to link to this, which makes the case that far too much attention has been paid to far-right involvement http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/
 
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droid

droid

Well-known member
Obv this is an awful situation, but I've been following the RT and independent media line on this for a while and if you're interested in media and propaganda its fascinating, as are many of the interactions between the west and the other power blocs.

There was a Russian guy on Irish radio this morning basically pushing the neo-nazi line, saying it was a coup, and the army is there to support Russian Ukrainians etc. He was challenged very forcibly by the presenter and was basically shouted down as the Russian proceeded to mock Western intervention and media coverage as propaganda - and he was, to an extent, correct. Look at the coverage of the MB and then demonstrations in Egypt. Although there was violence, there was no symbolic equivalent of full on nazi funeral ceremonies, and yet the MB demonstrators were demonised by mere association.
 
C

crackerjack

Well-known member
droid said:
This may be true, but I followed this with interest and saw absolutely no mention whatsoever (in the Irish press/radio/TV) of the neo-nazi angle until after Yuknavich was deposed. Not one.
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There was quite a lot of talk of ultra-nationalist involvement on C4 News and, I think, BBC during the demos. They didn't go into great depth about who they were or how far they were influencing events, but their involvement was regularly mentioned.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
crackerjack said:
edit again: Meant to link to this, which makes the case that far too much attention has been paid to far-right involvement http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/
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I haven't been following this as closely as some clearly have, but this passage leaped out at me:

The Russian press presented the protest as part of a larger gay conspiracy. The Ukrainian regime instructed its riot police that the opposition was led by a larger Jewish conspiracy. Meanwhile, both regimes informed the outside world that the protestors were Nazis. Almost nobody in the West seemed to notice this contradiction.
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It just struck a chord with something you see even with the modern far right in Britain: that the Nazis remain the go-to historical bogeymen not only for socialists, liberals and mainstream conservatives but even for groups whose ideology is in some respects not a million miles removed from that of the Third Reich.
 
sufi

sufi

lala
crackerjack said:
edit again: Meant to link to this, which makes the case that far too much attention has been paid to far-right involvement http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/
Click to expand...
this one for example: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/ukraine-fascists-oligarchs-eu-nato-expansion

my Ukrainian mate just reposted this on FB
1619627_10203373018705946_1482276654_n.jpg
fascist zombies eeek
 
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