And yet again, no argument.
Youve actually degraded since the last time we had this almost exact conversation.
Jeremy Corbyn
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- Start date
And yet again, no argument.
Youve actually degraded since the last time we had this almost exact conversation.
You're confusing 'Im not aware of it' with 'it doesnt exist'.
http://links.org.au/node/3281
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/08/mali
http://socialistworker.org/2011/01/19/crisis-in-ivory-coast
And there are countless books, papers and articles on the subject, presumably many more in French which I dont have access to, but unsurprisingly, the few English speaking journalists who are consistently critical of interventions concentrate on their own governments.
sadmanbarty
Well-known member
Irregardless of the morality of these actions, the west and their eastern european allies need to recognise the inevitability of Russian dominance of its neighbours. the north European plane has been the corridor to ground invasion by Napoleon and during the two world wars and as such presents a threat to Russia (of course it has also been the corridor to russian expansion) . Russia has the power to protect it's interests in these areas and as such western policy should not be to try to encircle it in these countries. Instead policy needs to focus on a finland style solution; guaranteeing political and economic freedom of these countries while simultaneously guaranteeing russian security. Furthermore pro-western governments need to grant russian diaspora populations freedom and allow them to have a say in there government; federalism I assume would be the best way of achieving this.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
I just think you're congenitally incapable of agreeing about politics with anyone called Oliver.
As I understand it, Corbyn was peripherally involved some time ago with Deir Yassin Remembered, either before it was infiltrated by anti-Semitic loonies or before it became widely known that Paul Eisen was a Holocaust-denying fuckhead. It would hardly be the first time a hard-left politician has associated with anti-Semites, so it's not entirely surprising people are wary of this, but I believe (and sincerely hope) the accusations are basically muck-raking and that there's no reason to think Corbyn himself holds these views.
I might dig some up over lunch - there are plenty to choose from.
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Precisely. NATO and US military and geopolitical policy since the fall of the Soviet Union has been one of encirclement, with aggressive deregulation as the economic arm of attempts at domination. This has led to a predictable spiralling cycle of provocation and escalation on both sides.
Putin is a butcher and a deeply cynical war criminal, this doesn't change the fact that the West had a chance at genuine detente with Russia after '91, which it deliberately chose to squander.
Im not looking for your opinion. Unless its claimed that Corbyn can predict the future then the accusations are utter bollocks and a cliched smear that discredits the accuser more than the accused. No one with an ounce of sense should entertain them, let alone a political commentator - unless they have an axe to grind.
The logic displayed in attempts to smear Corbyn here would also lead you to smear thatcher as a supporter of paedophiles, although in her case there is actually some evidence to suggest she had knowledge of what her friends and party members were up to.
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Now that is what I call Realpolitik! "Sorry Lithuania, Poland, Romania: Uncle Sam has his 'back yard', Uncle Joe has his, and you quite clearly fall into the latter."
I'm interested in what you mean by "federalism", and also "a Finland-style solution" - presumably you mean a brutal war for the survival of their country against a Soviet invasion?
firefinga
Well-known member
The quote is irrelevant regarding the claims in some of the above posts, namely that there is no majority for NATO membership in Poland (and likely in other former Warsaw Pact countries as well) . There clearly is.
It's even debatable that those 49 respectively 48 % are indeed a relative majority (Given the fact that within such polls there's always some % saying to have no opinion at all)
That claim was never made. The claim that was made is that Poles do not believe that the US will support them in the event of an attack and that they would not support military action in the event of an attack.
I can really see those critical reading skills at work there.
firefinga
Well-known member
That's open to interpretation.
For English being not my first language, I do pretty well.
Let's continue in German and we have an even playfield.
firefinga
Well-known member
Thank you.
sadmanbarty
Well-known member
Yes it is realpolitik.
As for Finland, I'm referring to the non-alignment policies adopted during the cold war that have prevented another such war occurring, while at the same time leading to the economic prosperity and democratic freedom of it's population.
Federal Ukraine:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2014/03/19/building-a-federal-ukraine/
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
I might have to concede at this point - you know what they say, you can always tell someone has won an argument when they start slinging around ad-hominem insults.
I asked sadmanbarty what he meant by "a Finland-style solution" and he - unlike you - responded reasonably and told me what he meant. And since the discussion is about Russian expansionism, it's hardly irrelevant to bring up the fact that Finland only exists as an independent country because it fought off a Soviet invasion.
As for examples of the kind of article I was talking about, here's Pilger in fine form, giving pro-Russian forces unlimited benefit of the doubt* - hey, they only want self-determination, and who could be against that?! (never mind the fact that many of them are only there in the first place because their grandparents were transplanted there as settlers following the genocide of the former populace) - while slandering their opposition uniformly as "neo-Nazis" and, of course, blaming the USA for sticking its oar in and messing up what would otherwise be the perfectly peaceable and routine reabsorption of Ukraine into Greater Russia. (Note, too, the wonderful line about how the only reason anyone could have a less than entirely rosy view of Hugo Chavez or Vladimir Putin (!) is because of propaganda in the form of Western media. Which, amazingly, apparently isn't even meant as a joke.)
If I can be arsed, I'll see if I can find that piece by Milne in which he's quite clearly rooting for those plucky mujahideen lads killing coalition and Afghan troops with IEDs...
*to be fair, the article came out a couple of months before that bothersome business with Flight MH17
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
OK thanks, I understand what you mean now.
Tea, you've been flinging ad hominems around for the last three pages. You've yet to make a coherent argument. Your response to sadmanbarty was sneering and insulting and Ive actually lost count of the amount of fallacies you've committed, so yes, Im going to take the piss.
Hmmm... Milne seems to me to be extremely careful in his use of language. There is nothing there that is not reasonable, and afaik, true. In fact, in general the tone seems fairly restrained and sensible. He doesn't lambast Putin, but nor does he absolve him of any crimes.
sadmanbarty
Well-known member
No problem. I'd also add that the mutually beneficial trade between Finland and the Soviet Union/Russia is another contributing factor to the balance Finland has achieved and is something that can be applied to other countries. This appears to be what Russia is gunning for (excuse the pun) in the region with things like the Eurasian Economic Union.