UK EU Referendum Aftermath
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IdleRich
IdleRich
I don't understand this position at all. Well, I get it when it's disingenuously held by Leavers but when people appear to seriously hold it I'm mystified. For me there are two major issues with the first referendum, firstly, Leave cheated, in more than one way. They systematically cheated, knew they cheated, and desperately tried to cover it up. It wasn't one rogue element or something, the whole campaign was dishonest and this is an established fact. For me that is a clear and compelling reason to disregard the first referendum. If the government came out and clearly pointed out the extent of proven cheating by the the Leave campaign then they could unilaterally withdraw Article 50.
Secondly, Leave lied and mislead the public - both deliberately and, I assume, accidentally as well with their ill-informed optimism on the "easiest deal in history" etc now we know a lot more about what Leave will mean.
So, since the previous (advisory) referendum we know that the winning side lied and cheated and the facts have changed. Two very strong reasons to ask the country again.
I'm not sure Remain would win - but if Leave wins again so be it. Go with God. At least we know it's what people want. At the moment it appears the leaders of the country are dead set on pursuing an insane course which more than half the country oppose. That's fucking nuts! We basically have the situation where the government line is "We can't go against democracy by democratically asking people what they think" and it is as moronic as it sounds.
And all these threats of civil disobedience and the like. We should treat these as both disgusting and laughable really.
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
Shit will be fucked up whatever happens, though. Better if it is fucked up in a country that is not in the throes of economic catastrophe. Once the message really gets through that the promises of Brexit really were all lies, and both prices and unemployment soar, a lot of people will be just as angry as if their initial vote gets overturned. It's a no-win situation.
sufi
lala
Yeah i'm surprised at yr lack of comprehension Rich, to the extent i almost had an "internet is wrong" moment yesterday, to compulsively set you straight. I hoped babboon would do the job
It's a terrible idea
Your characterisation of the Leave liars is so easily reversible and applied by the leavers to the Remoaners with their tales of Project Fear, and there are equally nebulous claims of data manipulation on both sides, which according to people who actually know about this stuff are overblown and impossible to substantiate or quantify - so its par for the course, rough and tumble of no holds barred so-called democracy.
I said here ages ago that it will be No Deal, it's too easy for the trolls to sabotage anything positive. I find this highly disturbing, but these politicians are scum, so what should we expect.
I'm finding remain position totally unsympathetic and naive, Team Remain are the only ones pushing for a 2nd vote, so it's partial, and would be moving the goalposts - I struggle to see how that could ever be acceptable, even as pseudodemocraxy. A crap idea on top of a crap idea in the first place but it's too late to fix the first one with a 2nd one, sorry.
Remain have no compelling rep (Tony Robinson ffs), and seem not to have been able to change the record since before they lost the first vote, unfortunately.
It's a terrible idea
Your characterisation of the Leave liars is so easily reversible and applied by the leavers to the Remoaners with their tales of Project Fear, and there are equally nebulous claims of data manipulation on both sides, which according to people who actually know about this stuff are overblown and impossible to substantiate or quantify - so its par for the course, rough and tumble of no holds barred so-called democracy.
I said here ages ago that it will be No Deal, it's too easy for the trolls to sabotage anything positive. I find this highly disturbing, but these politicians are scum, so what should we expect.
I'm finding remain position totally unsympathetic and naive, Team Remain are the only ones pushing for a 2nd vote, so it's partial, and would be moving the goalposts - I struggle to see how that could ever be acceptable, even as pseudodemocraxy. A crap idea on top of a crap idea in the first place but it's too late to fix the first one with a 2nd one, sorry.
Remain have no compelling rep (Tony Robinson ffs), and seem not to have been able to change the record since before they lost the first vote, unfortunately.
IdleRich
IdleRich
I can't work out if that's sarcasm or you really think all that. Was gonna go through it bit by bit and refute it but I don't want to bother cos I'll look stupid if it's a joke. Which the more I look at it, the more convinced I become that it must be.
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sufi
lala
i'm not sure either 
, but if it's serious then i worried that we might have a heated political discussion about brexit on dissensus, yikes
i just don't know what to think about the brexit, but it honestly surprises me that people are proposing a 2nd vote.
i just don't feel qualified to have a strong opinion on such a complicated matter, myself, didnt vote, and tbh i think this should be a technocratic matter not a democratic one. It shouldn't be down to campaigning and opinion. It's ridiculous to refute my points or for us to "debate" it as neither of us know the details. Certainly for emotional and tribal reasons i'd vote for inclusivity and Remain,
but it's strange how little empathy and understanding there is on the Remain side for the other PoV
, but if it's serious then i worried that we might have a heated political discussion about brexit on dissensus, yikesi just don't know what to think about the brexit, but it honestly surprises me that people are proposing a 2nd vote.
i just don't feel qualified to have a strong opinion on such a complicated matter, myself, didnt vote, and tbh i think this should be a technocratic matter not a democratic one. It shouldn't be down to campaigning and opinion. It's ridiculous to refute my points or for us to "debate" it as neither of us know the details. Certainly for emotional and tribal reasons i'd vote for inclusivity and Remain,
but it's strange how little empathy and understanding there is on the Remain side for the other PoV
sufi
lala
There is evidence of clear criminality during the leave campaign, exhaustively documented in some cases, and data manipulation seems to have been almost exclusively in favour of leave.
Project fear seems, if anything, to have underestimated the negatives of leaving, so in that sense it does not fall into the same category of many of the distortions pushed by the leave campaign.
I have no skin in the game here and I cant speak to the wisdom of a 2nd referendum in terms of ultimate outcome, but it seems like a not unreasonable stance.
Project fear seems, if anything, to have underestimated the negatives of leaving, so in that sense it does not fall into the same category of many of the distortions pushed by the leave campaign.
I have no skin in the game here and I cant speak to the wisdom of a 2nd referendum in terms of ultimate outcome, but it seems like a not unreasonable stance.
IdleRich
IdleRich
We know some details. For example we know enough to be certain that the following false equivalence is simply, literally not true.
For example just cos the Leavers (eg Priti "Ugly" Patel") claim that the Remain side cheated (ie broke spending limits) as much as the Leavers doesn't make it true. It's been investigated pretty thoroughly and the only discrepancy of the Remain campaign (more fool them) was some late receipts. So-called Project Fear may turn out to be an exaggeration (or it may turn out not to be sadly) but a future prediction made in good faith is hardly comparable to the 350m, the Turkish stuff etc etc I refuse to believe that you really and honestly think is.
Similarly there is no equivalence on this or about data manipulation - and to dismiss the Cambridge Analytics stuff as nebulous is also a gross distortion. Looks as though they are starting to take it seriously in the US right now with the Trump campaign. There is no equivalent accusation relating to Remain - again I'm surprised (to say the least) that you even say claim that.
But more generally, why say we can't debate this? I've never seen anything here ruled ultra vires due to a lack of known facts - maybe we don't know every single thing but I think that we can safely say that as it's been the main issue reported on and written about in the British press for the last two years we know more about it than we have lots of other things that were never questioned in that way.
As for this statement
I agree... because frankly at this stage it's clear that it's pretty much an insane and moronic point of view. OK maybe if I were involved in a debate in a public sphere where I was trying to win over Leavers I would moderate my language and perhaps appeal more emotively - but on dissensus which has about six users who comment at a rate of one post every three days I'm happy to just lay out the situation as it is without worrying too much about the effect it may have on the Remainer cause. I mean, no-one is listening, surely I can say how I feel without pandering to the feelings of racist idiots.
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
i'm not sure either
i just don't know what to think about the brexit, but it honestly surprises me that people are proposing a 2nd vote.
i just don't feel qualified to have a strong opinion on such a complicated matter, myself, didnt vote, and tbh i think this should be a technocratic matter not a democratic one. It shouldn't be down to campaigning and opinion. It's ridiculous to refute my points or for us to "debate" it as neither of us know the details. Certainly for emotional and tribal reasons i'd vote for inclusivity and Remain,
but it's strange how little empathy and understanding there is on the Remain side for the other PoV
The whole terms of the original referendum were insane - that a 4% victory under dubious circumstances/duplicitous campaigning could lead to such a drastic change in national direction. I don't know the worldwide comparisons, but surely for something like this at least a 60-40 win should be required to institute such drastic change.
I agree about this not being a democratic matter, necessarily, given its complexity. Representative democracy inherently contains the idea of entrusting technical decisions to experts, the problem being that the people elected are often idiots and as far from experts as could be imagined. The system is broken (if indeed it was ever fit for purpose), and Brexit may just be an absurdly cliff-edge symptom.
And I think that is something with which many Remainers/Stayers would agree. The protection of minority groups within a country can never be entrusted to popular vote, and this sound principle has been transgressed here.
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
The phrase Project Fear still makes me laugh whenever I hear it used seriously. As in the Telegraph, the best-selling comic in the UK. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...ttempt-resurrect-project-fear-fooling-nobody/
sufi
lala
(My point about project fear goes along with the facileness of voting on this vague question, there's lively rhetoric on both sides, which may or may not have anything to do with reality, FWIW i support Cadwalladr all the way)
I can accept that perhaps there could be a democratic vote on overall direction (though why on this aspect of foreign policy rather than any other policy area, e.g. arms budgets) but that has been totally undermined by the implementation of the vote and the aftermath. A genuine process might have involved looking at the relationship with Europe bit by bit to focus on where change might be needed and achievable, then doing a process to carry out those changes in a non-disruptive way, but this has never been a genuine process
None of that nice stuff was ever going to happen, this process has been run all the way by Tory and other head-bangers, and i can't imagine that they have pushed it this far without the delivery of the No Deal coup de grace as inevitable next step. Remain have actually never stood a chance.
also fully agree with my colleague the baboon re minority rights, but it's unpleasant to have to point this out - and shows how difficult it is to challenge remainism without being a fascist
I can accept that perhaps there could be a democratic vote on overall direction (though why on this aspect of foreign policy rather than any other policy area, e.g. arms budgets) but that has been totally undermined by the implementation of the vote and the aftermath. A genuine process might have involved looking at the relationship with Europe bit by bit to focus on where change might be needed and achievable, then doing a process to carry out those changes in a non-disruptive way, but this has never been a genuine process
None of that nice stuff was ever going to happen, this process has been run all the way by Tory and other head-bangers, and i can't imagine that they have pushed it this far without the delivery of the No Deal coup de grace as inevitable next step. Remain have actually never stood a chance.
also fully agree with my colleague the baboon re minority rights, but it's unpleasant to have to point this out - and shows how difficult it is to challenge remainism without being a fascist
sufi
lala
Don't worry
i don'tbaboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
It would be nice to have a popular vote on the upcoming Tory gerrymandering as well.
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...fil-will-of-the-people?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Well, at least we can say from experience that Putin has always had the well-being of the British public as a top priority.
Well, at least we can say from experience that Putin has always had the well-being of the British public as a top priority.
version
Well-known member
They'll probably get away with this, but they shouldn't - https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/bre...13-8m-contract-to-ferry-firm-with-no-ferries/
Brexit Minister unable to explain why ’emergency’ loophole was used to give £13.8m contract to ferry firm with no ferries
The decision to award almost £14 million of government cash to a ferry company which has yet to run a single service remains a mystery, after a government minister dodged the question no less than three times.
It was revealed last week that Seaborne Freight had been awarded the shipping contract in the case of a ‘no deal Brexit’, as part of contingency plans to ease pressure on the port of Dover. However, the contract wasn’t awarded by a competitive tender process, with the government instead using rules which come into play when “unforeseen events” cause an “extreme emergency”.
The firm, which plans to run services between Ramsgate in Kent and Osten in Belgium from March, also came under fire after it emerged it doesn’t currently own any ferries, and has yet to run a single service.
It was later revealed they had copied their terms and conditions from both a food delivery website and an online clothes boutique.
Brexit Minister unable to explain why ’emergency’ loophole was used to give £13.8m contract to ferry firm with no ferries
The decision to award almost £14 million of government cash to a ferry company which has yet to run a single service remains a mystery, after a government minister dodged the question no less than three times.
It was revealed last week that Seaborne Freight had been awarded the shipping contract in the case of a ‘no deal Brexit’, as part of contingency plans to ease pressure on the port of Dover. However, the contract wasn’t awarded by a competitive tender process, with the government instead using rules which come into play when “unforeseen events” cause an “extreme emergency”.
The firm, which plans to run services between Ramsgate in Kent and Osten in Belgium from March, also came under fire after it emerged it doesn’t currently own any ferries, and has yet to run a single service.
It was later revealed they had copied their terms and conditions from both a food delivery website and an online clothes boutique.
IdleRich
IdleRich
Yeah saw this thing with the ferry company. What the fuck is going on there? I guess they thought that there was so much going on that it wouldn't come any scrutiny. Anyway, the contract they get is only gonna exist if there is a No Deal Brexit right so hopefully it won't matter.
Big week this week anyway. May still blithering away about how anyone who opposes her vote is undemocratic. Fortunately no-one is listening to her at all, she is leader in name only, completely without anything like authority. I only hope that her defeat on Tuesday is crushing enough to penetrate even her robotic skull and cause some kind of re-think. But fuck knows what is going to happen. Labour are talking about forcing a GE which to me seems to be putting party in front of country. They should fucking sort this shit out from where we are and then work out who is gonna be in charge of what is left. If there is a GE then it's like re-setting the whole thing, we'll be starting from nowhere when we should be right by the end. Fucking hell it's a mess, a joke... I dunno, a disgrace.
At least the EU are making noises about allowing a delay though I don't see how a few months will change anything when they have been unable to do anything in two years. The only sane option and the only chance to break the deadlock is another referendum so we can probably rule that out....
Big week this week anyway. May still blithering away about how anyone who opposes her vote is undemocratic. Fortunately no-one is listening to her at all, she is leader in name only, completely without anything like authority. I only hope that her defeat on Tuesday is crushing enough to penetrate even her robotic skull and cause some kind of re-think. But fuck knows what is going to happen. Labour are talking about forcing a GE which to me seems to be putting party in front of country. They should fucking sort this shit out from where we are and then work out who is gonna be in charge of what is left. If there is a GE then it's like re-setting the whole thing, we'll be starting from nowhere when we should be right by the end. Fucking hell it's a mess, a joke... I dunno, a disgrace.
At least the EU are making noises about allowing a delay though I don't see how a few months will change anything when they have been unable to do anything in two years. The only sane option and the only chance to break the deadlock is another referendum so we can probably rule that out....
Leo
Well-known member
pardon my ignorance but is it a thing for MPs to just resign if things aren't going the way they like? isn't it the job of politicians to find ways to solve problems instead of just quit?
this "my way or the highway" attitude might make for a self-righteous ego boost but isn't a very productive negotiating tactic, trump is proof of that. do any politicians compromise anymore?
this "my way or the highway" attitude might make for a self-righteous ego boost but isn't a very productive negotiating tactic, trump is proof of that. do any politicians compromise anymore?