thirdform

pass the sick bucket
Without reading the article, the chances of capitalism and our benevolent pharma overlords not fucking it up and bringing it all in line with their usual shenanigans is slim to none. Like all the studying at Johns Hopkins rn with Roland Griffiths et al trying to resynthesize psilocybin with the aim of making a pill which gives you more or less the same results every time so that it's acceptable in the eyes of science completely defeats the whole lesson you're being taught by psychs. Certainty and safety is not what that shit is about. They've been used successfully in their natural state for thousands of years. The important thing is the prep and choice of moment. Ofc it can go wrong but most of the time that's due to negligence.



But science always knows best eh?

oh man you really want to go to goa with that attitude. Jesus wept. I've said this a million times before but the problem is the lesson learned from psychs is the shortcut way to do it. Cheating, capitalist gratification par excellence, give me my spiritual commodity! You don't end up cultivating the necessary discipline to learn those same lessons sober. So it has nothing to do with natural hippie bollocks. In fact, in traditional settings psychedelics are only a tool, not the be all and end all to the experience. Don't do history via erowid!

The noble Mexican population, having become Catholic under the merciless terror of the Spanish invaders, would show that they have remained “primitive” by not being terrified and horrified of death.
These peoples are, however, the heirs of a civilization misunderstood by Christians then and now and transmitted from ancient communism. Insipid modern individualism can only be flabbergasted by it, especially in this dull text where we read that graves are unmarked and that dishes are prepared even for those dead who no one remembers. True “unknown dead,” not because a sluggish, demagogic rhetoric says so but through the powerful simplicity of a life which is of the species and for the species, eternal like nature and not like a stupid swarm of souls wandering in the “beyond” for whose development the experiences of the dead, the living, and the as yet unborn are valid, in an historical sequence whose unfolding is not mourning but joy in all the moments of the material cycle.
Even in what they symbolize, these customs are nobler than ours. For example, these women who make themselves beautiful for the dead and not for the richest of the living, as in our mercantile society, this sewer in which we are immersed.


In fact a point I think @blissblogger made in that something like acid also has a more base use to turn the world into an adventure playground, which can be more profound than the deep spiritual learning crap the likes of Mckenna will harp on about.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Like all the studying at Johns Hopkins rn with Roland Griffiths et al trying to resynthesize psilocybin with the aim of making a pill which gives you more or less the same results every time so that it's acceptable in the eyes of science completely defeats the whole lesson you're being taught by psychs.
Have you got a link to anything about this? I'd be very surprised if anyone was trying to achieve something as obviously impossible as creating a psychedelic that reliably gives the same result each time.
 

pattycakes_

Can turn naughty
Have you got a link to anything about this? I'd be very surprised if anyone was trying to achieve something as obviously impossible as creating a psychedelic that reliably gives the same result each time.

I got it from an interview he did with Jordan Peterson which @WashYourHands passed on to me. He basically says the main thing holding psychs back from going mainstream is repeatable results.



Long time since I watched it, so I don't know where it comes up, but it's in there. There's probably plenty of other interviews with him without Peterson, but you'll have to look for those yer sel.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
I got it from an interview he did with Jordan Peterson which @WashYourHands passed on to me. He basically says the main thing holding psychs back from going mainstream is repeatable results.



Long time since I watched it, so I don't know where it comes up, but it's in there. There's probably plenty of other interviews with him without Peterson, but you'll have to look for those yer sel.


also just about my earlier post my point wasn't to trash psychedelics, but that even the likes of Leary etc and all the 60s countercultural types, for all their gnattering on about indigenous use, completely subtracted it from religious and mystical knowledge which in any case was agricultural and not that of the accelerated instant gratification of industry. So where just as capitalist. Often it reads like the old guard moaning about a frankenstein's monster they themselves played a large part in forming.
 

Murphy

cat malogen
It’s multilayered and complex, so to tease out certain details

Take palliative care as an example. If you had a compound among your medication protocols, synthesised or otherwise, which could transform a patient’s fear of death and all the anxieties such experiences brings (and compounds like buccal midazolam), why wouldn’t you incorporate it?

I respect the drive and institutional US dogma Griffiths has pushed through to even get this far with the results his team have advanced. His ethical position isn’t compromised like others. His aims are to reduce stigma, enhance quality of life and incorporate an ineffable range of experiences within healthcare pathways laden with numbing medications and narrow-minded, “fact-driven” sedation practices

Institutionalising his research to broader programs at larger scales is extremely problematic but with end of life care dignity is in short supply. If you see adaptive research as encroaching on the sanctity of mythical experiences through psychedelics, you’re gatekeeping as much as those who seek to install these compounds within criminal frameworks

Summary - we simply don’t have enough effective medications for problematic and extremely painful areas of existence. Trauma therapy will gain as much from Griffiths as palliative care has and we’ve been seeking breakthroughs beyond graded exposure in this field for an extremely long time. It doesn’t have to become industrialised to be helpful
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
also just about my earlier post my point wasn't to trash psychedelics, but that even the likes of Leary etc and all the 60s countercultural types, for all their gnattering on about indigenous use, completely subtracted it from religious and mystical knowledge which in any case was agricultural and not that of the accelerated instant gratification of industry. So where just as capitalist. Often it reads like the old guard moaning about a frankenstein's monster they themselves played a large part in forming.

as I said in an earlier thread.

nearly all people who speak positively about psychedelics are irresponsible in evangelising them, even for beneficial uses. If you want to give people an accurate picture you have to tell people what the experience is, which is essentially a temporary state of schizophrenia. sometimes this can still keep you cognitively aware of the external world, other times it cannot. But the fact that people don't mention this is irresponsible in the extreme. It also gets rid of the allure. A lot of drug culture is marketting pseudo-rebellion, nothing to do with quantity.

I'm not asking you to rebel by taking drugs, I'm asking you to rebel against drug culture. demystify it to bring out the true power of gnosis.
 

pattycakes_

Can turn naughty
Institutionalising his research to broader programs at larger scales is extremely problematic

This is the crux of the issue, and knowing the pharma industry it's hard to trust they won't bollock it up one way or another.

Full respect to Griffiths 2+ decades of research, proving over and over that psychs hold so much of what is needed to deal with those more nuanced issues like palliative care, trauma and addiction. My issue is about the system he works under which stops this well-proven vessel from being put to good use now, because of the hoops he has to jump through, which requires a reconfiguration of something he himself has seen work wonders over and over again.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
@thirdform maybe we could team up and you dole out the 10 grams of hash in yoghurt while I sell enlightenment for 5 bucks a hit from our giant teddy bear shaped kiosk at the next burning man?

problem is trust fund kids are the most stingey people on earth. If I can't make a profit fooling clueless yuppies, what's the point?
 

Murphy

cat malogen
@pattycakes_ he is in the US to be fair and their institutional policing is a strange mix of regulation/deregulation and extremely tight loopholes, with r&d questions to be expected like:

where’s the profit margin?

how do we market these drugs?

can we shift these compounds towards lifestyle options and tack to respective marketing tricks and gimmicks?

how can we deregulate further to sprinkle on granola bars?

etc, not that Carhart-Harris et al have it any easier
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
also just about my earlier post my point wasn't to trash psychedelics, but that even the likes of Leary etc and all the 60s countercultural types, for all their gnattering on about indigenous use, completely subtracted it from religious and mystical knowledge which in any case was agricultural and not that of the accelerated instant gratification of industry.
Or they injected it with a bogus or otherwise misplaced mysticism, as in Wasson's famous article for Time about his experience of a Mazatec mushroom ceremony in Mexico, in which he wrote that the curandera, Maria Sabina, used the mushrooms to commune with her ancestors and tribal deities in an unbroken tradition stretching back to before the arrival of the Spanish, simply because this is what he'd expected. In fact the purpose of the ceremony was therapeutic, not religious, and Maria Sabina was a Catholic, as her community had been for centuries, so when she wanted to talk to God, she did so through the intercession of her parish priest, as any practicing Catholic would.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I got it from an interview he did with Jordan Peterson which @WashYourHands passed on to me. He basically says the main thing holding psychs back from going mainstream is repeatable results.



Long time since I watched it, so I don't know where it comes up, but it's in there. There's probably plenty of other interviews with him without Peterson, but you'll have to look for those yer sel.

Haha, I'm not going to subject myself to 2.5 hours of Jordan P, so thanks for the link, but no thanks.

Are you sure it wasn't just something about putting psilocybin in pills? Because this is nothing new - Hofmann was doing it in the 50s - and isn't controversial, either, since it has exactly the same effect as the mushrooms. All it means is that you're getting a controlled dose - which obviously does not imply a controlled experience - and obviates the risk of getting a batch of mushrooms that are either overwhelmingly strong or disappointingly weak.
 

Murphy

cat malogen
Obviates lol, bellend. Griffiths is the link, not Kermit, you div Tea. If you seek/sought out his actual work and its specific applications, I’d go easier on you but this is tough love. Griffiths applied psilocybin intake to terminally ill cancer patients and got results that might change modern medicine. Cancer wards and palliative care units can be foreboding, bleak, artificial landscapes. Wouldn’t it be massive to shift elements of light, of contrition, of transcendence, in to the tumultuous chaos?

We all know huge investments have taken place in the field of psychedelics, who they are, with eyes on profit through industrialisation of augmented mysticism. Griffiths isn’t among them. Society, whatever that is, is at a crossroads with regulations shifting. The parasites are hovering, in-trip advertising assured, no doubt - the empire never ended colonising sanctity. Yet, it comes back to reclaiming dignity when people avoid psychedelics in palliative care settings and during trauma therapy because of the cultural baggage, stigma, fear and legal consequences attached

Griffiths may have changed the entire system. Time will tell
 

pattycakes_

Can turn naughty
Are you sure it wasn't just something about putting psilocybin in pills?

Nope.

There was a bit in the interview where he said something along the lines of 'in the future we may see psilocybin as a primitive compound because we are working towards improving it.' Vis-a-vis making it predictable & repeatable, as the scientific method requires.

Iirc, there was also talk of one compound being worked on without all the mind bending and just having the anti-addiction effects.

This rubbed me the wrong way because it's fine as it is (imo!) and smacks of playing god. Especially when dealing with something as heavily mystical as psychedelics. Hence the tone of my post. But he's chosen that route because it's the only way psychs are ever going to get a foot in the door and be taken seriously after all the damage people like Leary did in the 60s by being so irresponsible with them. So for that, you have to doff yer cap to Griffiths. He's doing it the only way it can be done as the current system stands, but as @WashYourHands says, the suits are already rubbing their hands together. Which leaves us with a high chance of phyrric victory.

But, if the new compounds do actually work, then that will be somewhat of a win. Even if you are being dosed by Pfizer.

So yeah, let's see.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
Nope.

There was a bit in the interview where he said something along the lines of 'in the future we may see psilocybin as a primitive compound because we are working towards improving it.' Vis-a-vis making it predictable & repeatable, as the scientific method requires.

Iirc, there was also talk of one compound being worked on without all the mind bending and just having the anti-addiction effects.

This rubbed me the wrong way because it's fine as it is (imo!) and smacks of playing god. Especially when dealing with something as heavily mystical as psychedelics. Hence the tone of my post. But he's chosen that route because it's the only way psychs are ever going to get a foot in the door and be taken seriously after all the damage people like Leary did in the 60s by being so irresponsible with them. So for that, you have to doff yer cap to Griffiths. He's doing it the only way it can be done as the current system stands, but as @WashYourHands says, the suits are already rubbing their hands together. Which leaves us with a high chance of phyrric victory.

But, if the new compounds do actually work, then that will be somewhat of a win. Even if you are being dosed by Pfizer.

So yeah, let's see.

why do you want psychedelics to remain pure so much? don't tell me you judge people who have imbibed fifferently to those who have? Also how is it playing God when intoxication for the sake of intoxication is discouraged in most religions?
 
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