CrowleyHead
Well-known member
Inevitably we are all fighting the disease of Britishness wherever we hail from on this forum.
I disagree. A major problem is that rap's canon was written by New York and Los Angeles because those are the two major media access points in America, meanwhile America at large is... well insanely big.
This is the antithesis of Luka's theorems where constantly all of England is actually defined by London, which is actually defined by East London, which is further minimized focused into (effervescent gesture). America is too vast and things happen all the time where nobody notices. Inventions, innovations, and nobody cares. Much like the techno debates elsewhere on this forum, think of how much happened in these small pocket cities of America and how much was constantly being bounced back and forth along through the nation. Detroit's techno neighboring Chicago house, battling NYC's hip-hop, Miami's Bass (not to mention Atlanta's Bass) and LA's Electro/boogie. That happens on a much smaller and more easily disregarded scale in the UK because it's a significantly smaller population and smaller span of land which means the immediacy is so much harder, even with modern technology. Nothing can actually duplicate the ease of being in a physical space. So much of this country lacks the claustrophobia but is too schizophrenic for any display of Subjective Representation. Too many names, too many cities, too many faces, too many eyes.
Hip-Hop went a far way without the sampling all over the country and then eventually sampling went the way of the dodo. It's now a vanity flourish.
It's why Jungle is a dead end genre. Not because it can't innovate further upon itself (it can) but it NEEDS the sampled drum. Whenever these producers try to sculpt these fake tin robot drum sounds to avoid chopping 'the same old same old breaks' they just reveal skeleton tunes. Woebot was right to argue that Hip-Hop is the real lifeblood of jungle, but he didn't know what he was doing because he falls for the British novelty of mistaking Public Enemy as an exemplary of rap instead of being an anomaly.
The rhythmic language of todays hip hop isnt anything like 80's production. 80's production was an off shoot of dance music. It took you on a forward march past a chronological sequence of samples and sounds, like an old mill carnival ride that shuttles you down a tunnel, each turn an animatronic side show springs at you from the walls. Eric B and Rakim are considered the first modern rap artists because they heightened the swing feeling in the rhythm with accents on the off beat and third when the snare hits- the stuff that locks you into that tight, characteristically hip hop head nod. They also shortened the sample lengths, and production looked less like a stacking of distinct sounds but an intricate arrangement of concise loops that interlock and reinterpret the others to form one unified master loop. The chronology of 80's production gives way to a new feeling of timelessness and A parts and B parts are replaced by a revealing and concealing of the master loop. This is essentially where were at today- the best trap beats have that same hypnotic, clockwork feel of the best boom bap beats.
I think the closest modern comparisons to 80's hip hop was the early/mid 2000's, the Timberland and Pharrell and early Kanye production with bang-on-a-cafeteria-lunch-table rhythms and a bend for wacky sounds- bed springs, water drops, mouth sounds and etc.
my favorite uses of sampling in hip hop are from the 80s. a lot of times the source material is really corny but used and manipulated in very jarring, imaginative ways. ironically probably closer to what john oswald had in mind than the more accessible, well known efforts later on.Think post 80's hip hop gets big credit for finding a way to remove the kitsch from plunderphonic music too. no small feat.
Maybe Im ignorant but I dont think coldcut is all that different from 80's style rap production.I really like this post but as Crowley says I think it is a better description of coldcut than of actual 80s rap which I don't think I recognise from the description. But I'd like an expanded explanation with examples and time stamps and so on. A real in depth PowerPoint presentation to illuminate the thesis
Think were in the midst of another swing of the pendulum, maybe because of that Oedipal urge, a reaction against a decade of the snappy trap beats. Drake, Danny Brown, Vince Staples, Rico Nasty, Brock Hampton- all have experimented with dance sensibilities in line with the early aughts/80's pairing (if we are to take it that that isn't a shit comparison). Even soundcloud guys, ostensibly the vanguard for modern trap production, have gotten in the mix. Ski Mask the Slump Gods most popular song is over a missy eliot beat:Crowley had talked before about how he has an frenzied Oedipal urge to tear down the cultural touchstones and dogmas of his father, eg sampling and a NYcentric viewpoint.
I really like 80's sampling too, but I wouldn't call most 80's production plunderphonics. Alot of the first modern hip hop beats were entirely sample basedmy favorite uses of sampling in hip hop are from the 80s. a lot of times the source material is really corny but used and manipulated in very jarring, imaginative ways. ironically probably closer to what john oswald had in mind than the more accessible, well known efforts later on.
guess i'm not that interested in drawing a hard line between plunderphonics and other sample usage personally. what i meant is more that there's sample usage from the 80s close in spirit to what john oswald (who did coin the term, after all) was doing and was interested in at the time. playing with the familiarity of the sonic materials.I really like 80's sampling too, but I wouldn't call most 80's production plunderphonics. Alot of the first modern hip hop beats were entirely sample based