Election 2020

[sufi]

a lot of manufactured outrage and, as luke points out, a spectacular to isolate trump. but there are a lot of interests at play
but also amazing to see the genuine revolutionary fervour, albeit of course for an execrable cause
and the distinct feeling of a set up, a performance

and despite the weird fakeness there's a big space for unpredictable outcomes,

oh c'mon. absolutely domestic terrorism, straight up. storming the seat of the federal government, with the singlular intention of disrupting one the most fundamental aspects of democracy: the peaceful transfer of power. fuck all the 9/11, "darkest day" bullshit, no one cares about some dumbass story line from a few media outlets. don't get sucked into the bullshit, they may have been dimwits but that doesn't excuse what they did.

yeah i agree even though it was in some ways quite subdued, it's an extremely serious development and the threat is still really considerable i reckon, the worst aspect maybe is the state collusion

 

[sufi]

at the same time though, disrupting the senate proceedings has an element of play acting, its not like occupying the building would have achieved more than a symbolic victory in this ongoing coup attempt

and still after the protestors left a significant number of republicans voted against certifying anyway if i'm not wrong?

 

[IdleRich]

and the distinct feeling of a set up, a performance

It did feel like that... but I think that that is just cos everything feels like that now. I mean, everything that is filmed live and instragrammed and all the rest of it. Probably Baudrillard or someone said it already (or Debord whatever).
So that doesn't make it any less real, people really died.
And I agree with Leo - it doesn't matter how dumb the people were and how little they ultimately achieved, they did attempt to stop the certification by attacking the place where democracy happens - which is attacking democracy - and that does matter. They delayed the certification. Fair enough they reconvened and got it done but still...

 

[martin]

Unrelated, I was going to post this in the Japan thread, but seems a pro-Trump faction had their own mini-demo in Tokyo - which I REALLY can't get my head around 🙄

 

[Leo]

A man who was photographed carrying the lectern of Speaker Nancy Pelosi during the rampage in the U.S. Capitol this week and another who roamed through the halls of Congress while wearing a horned fur headdress have been arrested and charged, the Justice Department said on Saturday.

Adam Johnson, 36, of Parrish, Fla., was arrested by U.S. marshals on Friday night after a widely circulated photograph showed him sporting a wide smile as he waved to the camera with one hand and hauled off Ms. Pelosi’s lectern with the other. On his head he wore a Trump knit hat, with the number “45” on the front.

 

[IdleRich]

at the same time though, disrupting the senate proceedings has an element of play acting, its not like occupying the building would have achieved more than a symbolic victory in this ongoing coup attempt

and still after the protestors left a significant number of republicans voted against certifying anyway if i'm not wrong?

Yeah but a smaller number. In fact they only managed to object to two of the six states which they had intended to so it had quite an effect on that.
And yeah it was only symbolic and surely even the dumbest realised that was the best they could hope for - despite what I said earlier they didn't truly think that by standing in the chamber they would suddenly rule the country - but symbolic means something doesn't it? I think a symbol is probably literally a thing that means more than it does in itself.

 

[sufi]

democracy is up on a pedestal though, like this crypto-sacred concept, so it's vulnerable to symbolic attacks like this that are kind of splitting off the power from the performance,
looking at it as a stress test to see what sort of response the public and the state militias react, its demonstrated that there's a big space that these fuckers can march right into
and despite a lot of them being grannies or idiots or naive day trippers there are also well resourced well trained motivated activists who will exploit the opportunity. the idea of shadowy coordination is scary

 

[martin]

they did attempt to stop the certification by attacking the place where democracy happens - which is attacking democracy - and that does matter.

If you''re into that, I get it. But I don't understand why ACAB/ 'fuck the system' types on Twitter are taking the same line. I would have been ecstatic if Class War types had done this instead of MAGA, but the Senate's full of corrupt scumbag politicians...why should we treat them with an ounce of respect? Is the House of Commons a 'sacred space' too?

 

[IdleRich]

democracy is up on a pedestal though, like this crypto-sacred concept, so it's vulnerable to symbolic attacks like this that are kind of splitting off the power from the performance,

Yeah, I reckon the more sacred something is, the more these things matter. Like, I'm not religious though I guess I grew up in the Church of England, but if you are very religious you would be extremely offended by someone violating a church or the holy objects. But if you weren't you wouldn't care. So the value for good and bad sort of originates in the same place.

 

[IdleRich]

If you''re into that, I get it. But I don't understand why ACAB/ 'fuck the system' types on Twitter are taking the same line. I would have been ecstatic if Class War types had done this instead of MAGA, but the Senate's full of corrupt scumbag politicians...why should we treat them with an ounce of respect? Is the House of Commons a 'sacred space' too?

I was thinking about that... would definitely have had some power if you saw them busting into there and sitting in the speaker's chair etc but what if it wasn't Class War but NF who were in the House of Commons and gleefully taking pictures?

 

[sufi]

seems the masked up paramilitary guy with the cuffs and sidearm, who cut an intimidating figure on the senate floor, has been IDed and was there iwth his mum, seems like more of a larper than a pro since he failed to keep his cover once he got back to his motel and boasted to journalists
that feels comforting
Ashlee herself was a vet and others are too though apparently.
apparently there were some poocrimes, strange they didn't start fires or trash anything, apparently some were staying withing the tourist barriers, there's this strange contradiction with nationalists invading that national "sacred" space that they were having to navigate in real space & time,
and did so in all sorts of creative and spontaneous ways, with different responses from the system

 

[martin]

I was thinking about that... would definitely have had some power if you saw them busting into there and sitting in the speaker's chair etc but what if it wasn't Class War but NF who were in the House of Commons and gleefully taking pictures?

I wouldn't be happy about it for sure. But I wouldn't read it as a breach of the HoC's 'sanctity' or pity any politicians who had to hide and tremble in a side room (and wouldn't be happy with media coverage that whipped up public sentiment to describe it as the worst thing since the Blitz)

LOL ETA...I was gonna say "or push for a legislative crackdown that target strikers on the Orgreave/Wapping protests, in Northern Ireland, etc and have them described as 'terrorists')" - but of course, they did anyway...

(BTW, none of that is meant as snarky)

 

[IdleRich]

I was thinking about that... would definitely have had some power if you saw them busting into there and sitting in the speaker's chair etc but what if it wasn't Class War but NF who were in the House of Commons and gleefully taking pictures?

But yeah there is a hypocrisy in celebrating if it was your guys doing it and suddenly being horrified at the assault on democracy when it's the other side.
I guess my only justification is that it's possible to like things in this order
Genuine left-wing replacement for the current system > current system > nazi thug rule
And how much I like the current system and its symbols and how sacred they are to me probably depends on where they are attacked from.

 

[martin]

But yeah there is a hypocrisy in celebrating if it was your guys doing it and suddenly being horrified at the assault on democracy when it's the other side.
I guess my only justification is that it's possible to like things in this order
Genuine left-wing replacement for the current system > current system > nazi thug rule
And how much I like the current system and its symbols and how sacred they are to me probably depends on where they are attacked from.

Well no offence, but if you want to go for legitimacy of democracy and the current system, you shouldn't complain about Brexit.

 

[IdleRich]

I wouldn't be happy about it for sure. But I wouldn't read it as a breach of the HoC's 'sanctity' or pity any politicians who had to hide and tremble in a side room (and wouldn't be happy with media coverage that whipped up public sentiment to describe it as the worst thing since the Blitz).

And certainly not with the resulting crackdown that would see wildcats on the Wapping protests nicked for 'terrorism'

(BTW, none of that is meant as snarky)

Sure no I wasn't taking it that way at all.
But yeah - a number of points there - totally agree on the new laws thing, it's a fucking simple statement of fact that they always get misused, abused and so on. No-one should want more powers for the police.
As for the politicians and the sanctity thing I blow both ways... helpless old men and women lawmakers should be able to do their job without being attacked, but then again ninety percent of people in that building are obviously arseholes who know how to get rich from working the system.
My basic problem is I don't have a consistent position myself on this kind of stuff so the views I express can't help but be a kind of mess.
I believe in democracy, I believe in the symbols that represent it, but I also believe that US democracy has long been a joke and that the symbols have long been tarnished. I dunno.

 

[sufi]

But yeah there is a hypocrisy in celebrating if it was your guys doing it and suddenly being horrified at the assault on democracy when it's the other side.
I guess my only justification is that it's possible to like things in this order
Genuine left-wing replacement for the current system > current system > nazi thug rule

it works very differently though isnt it - loads of obvious instances of previous smashings of protest around the senate and white house and all over, the fact that this happened this way is significant and could only have happened with the right, isnt it

the acquiesence to this whole situation, so trump has had impunity to talk shit for years, and despite has openly disgraced the office of president yet he is still able to command vestiges of deference and respect, and literally is still the commander
you can even read it as a validation of this democracy in that it was the senate that was chosen as the target, a dance between the wild and the domesticated factions

 

[sufi]

Well no offence, but if you want to go for legitimacy of democracy and the current system, you shouldn't complain about Brexit.

snarky

 

[IdleRich]

Well no offence, but if you want to go for legitimacy of democracy and the current system, you shouldn't complain about Brexit.

I don't see that at all. Within democracy you're always allowed to complain about the results and you're certainly allowed to complain about how they were achieved, especially if you think that the rules were subverted.
Brexit was a Non-binding referendum where the winning sign broke the rules to the extent that it would have been declared illegal if it had been binding. It was won on lies and as more and more of what it was about was revealed it became increasingly unpopular.
Also, what it promised has not been delivered eg staying in the single market etc
So we have a now unpopular idea that is not even what was voted for being forced through on the basis of an unsafe referendum - I don't think that being against that requires any kind of fancy footwork at all (although whatever my position on the issues above is might - as I said).
Edit: in fact a big problem with Brexit was that it was nothing to do with the current system - it became quite apparent that the country didn't know how to set up a referendum question properly or run the build up or even decide what a victory would mean.

 

[sufi]

I don't see that at all. Within democracy you're always allowed to complain about the results and you're certainly allowed to complain about how they were achieved, especially if you think that the rules were subverted.
Brexit was a Non-binding referendum where the winning sign broke the rules to the extent that it would have been declared illegal if it had been binding. It was won on lies and as more and more of what it was about was revealed it became increasingly unpopular.
Also, what it promised has not been delivered eg staying in the single market etc
So we have a now unpopular idea that is not what was voted for being forced through on the basis of an unsafe referendum - I don't think that being against that requires any kind of fancy footwork at all (although whatever my position on the issues above is might - as I said).

what about if one or other side had invaded parliament to push their agenda? (or even buck house?)
even if the vote wasnt swung perhaps the range of outcomes shifts

 

[sufi]

there's a grand tradition of spectacular political attacks in the US like John Brown's ferry and so on isnt it
not that democratic