Election 2020

[IdleRich]

what about if one or other side had invaded parliament to push their agenda? (or even buck house?)
even if the vote wasnt swung perhaps the range of outcomes shiftsI

Um... I dunno. Probably would have liked it if it was my side and begged for the tasers if not.
But that's a different issue. The main point is that in no way am I arguing that being broadly in favour of democracy means that any decision arrived at by democracy is good. And it certainly shouldn't be irrevocable - which has been another problem with brexit. For a long time a second vote was resisted cos they knew it was no longer popular... that doesn't sound like democracy to me.
But going back to the debate, I don't see that thinking that maybe the attack on the Capitol building and the attempt to prevent certification was a step too far means that I should somehow support brexit.
Perhaps I'm not one of the more hysterically offended by the Capitol thing... but even if I was absolutely spitting blood about it, how would that link to Brexit?

 

[sufi]

the shortcomings of democracy are really obvious but taboo prevents us from mentioning them.
willing suspension of disbelief in the civic performance

 

[sufi]

the royals in uk are more sacrosant than the politicians, imagine the uproar and the similar ambiguous situations if the uk gammons and brexiteers ran wild in the royal palaces, or westminster abbey

 

[IdleRich]

there's a grand tradition of spectacular political attacks in the US like John Brown's ferry and so on isnt it
not that democratic

I guess. And of course if you feel that all political avenues are closed to you then you move to direct action - that's why you get terrorists/freedom fighters. Not getting into that, but actually, now I think about it, that's kinda what rankles so much about the right in the US just now - they are not having anything denied to them, they controlled the house, the senate, the presidency, most of the press and now the supreme court - and they lost fair and fucking square - and yet they're acting as though they are an oppressed people under the yoke of conquering invaders or something.
That's the issue isn't it? They don't need to make those grand gestures but they really think that straight white men are the most oppressed minority in the world.

 

[IdleRich]

the royals in uk are more sacrosant than the politicians, imagine the uproar and the similar ambiguous situations if the uk gammons and brexiteers ran wild in the royal palaces, or westminster abbey

But no true gammon would do that, that's what makes them gammon.

 

[IdleRich]

But personally I'd be far less offended by seeing some anarchist bum-raping the queen than I would by a mob trying to prevent the winners of an election taking their place.

 

[sufi]

I guess. And of course if you feel that all political avenues are closed to you then you move to direct action - that's why you get terrorists/freedom fighters. Not getting into that, but actually, now I think about it, that's kinda what rankles so much about the right in the US just now - they are not having anything denied to them, they controlled the house, the senate, the presidency, most of the press and now the supreme court - and they lost fair and fucking square - and yet they're acting as though they are an oppressed people under the yoke of conquering invaders or something.
That's the issue isn't it? They don't need to make those grand gestures but they really think that straight white men are the most oppressed minority in the world.

both brexit and the us 2020 elections should have been called draws though, the votes were so finely balanced
that's the problem, noone can create a definitive constituency, they just create splits

 

[sufi]

democracy is reduced to this set of stunts, and actually they can be really destructive

 

[IdleRich]

both brexit and the us 2020 elections should have been called draws though, the votes were so finely balanced
that's the problem, noone can create a definitive constituency, they just create splits

Well the US 2020 election was won by a large margin - seven million votes, a landslide in the electoral college. I don't see how that could be called a draw, it's one of the biggest wins ever.
Brexit. I dunno. The point is, it wasn't really thought through, they said simple majority and so I don't think it was a draw either really, it's not contested in terms of the count.

 

[Leo]

both brexit and the us 2020 elections should have been called draws though, the votes were so finely balanced
that's the problem, noone can create a definitive constituency, they just create splits

sorry @sufi, completely wrong on the us election. as rich said, huge margin of victory for biden.

 

[martin]

I guess I just hate politicians. Of course there's personal bias - if I have to subsist on this fucking dustbowl, I'd rather do it with people who don't want to gas dole recipients, eradicate others 'cos of their skin colour, etc. But 'democracy' is a nice concept when you're doing well - when you're getting screwed over by the vermin who inhabit the 'sacred space', who couldn't possibly understand how it feels to balance the cost of a tube ticket to a compulsory 'Get Back To Work!' seminar vs a can of deodorant or kidney beans, those encoded, time-honoured principles are just worthless trash.

 

[sufi]

sorry @sufi, completely wrong on the us election. as rich said, huge margin of victory for biden.

fair enough, but you still have millions upon millions who feel disenfranchised because it's winner takes all

 

[sufi]

fair enough, but you still have millions upon millions who feel disenfranchised because it's winner takes all

and out of those millions even a small minority is enough wild insurgents to pull off all sorts of tomfoolery,
but that doesnt necessarily mean you have to take it seriously, it might be a while before proportionality is possible, if ever

 

[martin]

My point though @IdleRich is, if you wanna play the game, there's a risk you'll get burnt when it doesn't go your way. I know retrospect's a fine thing (and I wouldn't claim to have foreseen it) but it would have been better if the Remainers just fucked off the referendum, or tried to undermine it, rather than play along.

 

[IdleRich]

sorry @sufi, completely wrong on the us election. as rich said, huge margin of victory for biden.

Shows how powerful the propaganda has been - that loads of people say "it was close" or "it was questionable" when neither of those things are true at all, in fact they are less true than in any other election but they just say it all the time and it almost worked..

 

[sufi]

sorry @sufi, completely wrong on the us election. as rich said, huge margin of victory for biden.

what sort of %?

 

[IdleRich]

I guess I just hate politicians. Of course there's personal bias - if I have to subsist on this fucking dustbowl, I'd rather do it with people who don't want to gas dole recipients, eradicate others 'cos of their skin colour, etc. But 'democracy' is a nice concept when you're doing well - when you're getting screwed over by the vermin who inhabit the 'sacred space', who couldn't possibly understand how it feels to balance the cost of a tube ticket to a compulsory 'Get Back To Work!' seminar vs a can of deodorant or kidney beans, those encoded, time-honoured principles are just worthless trash.

I don't disagree with this really. I just think that just by existing in the system I've sort of signed up to some extent to caring about it working properly. As I see it. Whatever that means.

 

[IdleRich]

Well approx seven million out of approx 150 million voters is approx five percent.

 

[sufi]

Well approx seven million out of approx 150 million voters is approx five percent.

yeah that's my point, it's not really a slam dunk

 

[IdleRich]

My point though @IdleRich is, if you wanna play the game, there's a risk you'll get burnt when it doesn't go your way. I know retrospect's a fine thing (and I wouldn't claim to have it) but it would have been better if the Remainers just fucked off the referendum, or tried to undermine it, rather than play along.

Er... I dunno. I think it would have been best if they won it. If they'd just fucked it off wouldn't they have just lost by more? I don't really know what they could have done to undermine it.
But totally you're right, they thought they would win - Cameron thought he'd win - by miles. Which was also a problem. I think if they had thought about what a Leave win might mean then it wouldn't have all been such a fuck up afterwards.