Election 2020

[IdleRich]

yeah that's my point, it's not really a slam dunk

OK but it's a bigger margin than most US elections. Perhaps you think they should all have been declared draws.
Last time Trump lost the popular vote by 2 million and won the electoral college by 76 and called it a landslide.
I take your point that FPTP type systems that have an all or nothing winner seem a bit reductive. I'd definitely prefer a proportional representation system in the UK, it's just fairer. But given that the US have the system they do, this year Biden had a historically fairly large win.

 

[martin]

If they'd just fucked it off wouldn't they have just lost by more? I don't really know what they could have done to undermine it.

No, me neither. Just saying: play by the rules, dem's the breaks.

 

[IdleRich]

Yes in any system where it picks one winner then theoretically (if it's just a straight popular vote) then one side could win by one vote out of a billion and then rule the country totally - and that seems crazy.
At least with a country they repeat the process every few years and so if they fuck up maybe that one guy will change sides.
Problem with brexit is it looks like being forever or near enough. Democracy ought to be a process not a one-off. Though you have to balance how frequently you have your votes with how much you want your guys to be able to do when they're in power.

 

[IdleRich]

No, me neither. Just saying: play by the rules, dem's the breaks.

But I think it's legitimate to complain that they didn't play by the rules.
When I was arguing about this before and saying that the situation had changed and now we knew more and it appeared that brexit was unpopular maybe we should have another referendum now we actually have a much better idea of what we're voting for. And someone said it's not the right mechanism cos they might still vote Leave... but I thought, well if they do, that means people are genuinely voting for this huge fuck up we can see and that's fair enough. But what I have a major problem with is, that it appears to not be popular and not even be what people voted for and yet we are still doing it on the basis that people voted for something that had the same name but wasn't the same.

 

[sufi]

you don't have to defend democracy, we all know its a bit shit

trump as a figure is important isnt it - a proper personality cult.
no obvious successor figure except maybe his horrible daughter, like le pen's daughter

if he goes to jail he would still be like a toxic martyr an anti-ocalan, and if when he dies he'll be like a sort of elvis/lenin mashup

 

[IdleRich]

I know that politicians often fail to deliver their promises... but at least you can vote them out next time. Seems kinda different when it's "brexit will be like this" and then they win the vote and say "actually it's like this, but we won the vote and it's happening. Oh and it's forever".

 

[sufi]

if for instance the trumpists were to form a splittist party, that could be a way out of the 2 party deadlock, the rump republicans would become invincible centrists

 

[IdleRich]

you don't have to defend democracy, we all know its a bit shit

trump as a figure is important isnt it - a proper personality cult.
no obvious successor figure except maybe his horrible daughter, like le pen's daughter

if he goes to jail he would still be like a toxic martyr an anti-ocalan, and if when he dies he'll be like a sort of elvis/lenin mashup

It's not that I want to defend democracy... I was genuinely interested in what @martin said or asked about the storming of the capitol cos it made me realise I wasn't sure what exactly I felt or why.
I do think now though that a big part of it is seeing privileged people resorting to tactics which their position doesn't justify.

 

[Leo]

what's the better alternative to democracy?

 

[IdleRich]

if for instance the trumpists were to form a splittist party, that could be a way out of the 2 party deadlock, the rump republicans would become invincible centrists

I hope they do form three parties. I mean simplistically it would split the right, but maybe Rs would persuade some Ds to split off and form a (relatively) centre party. I dunno enough about their make up to know really.

 

[IdleRich]

what's the better alternative to democracy?

Quoting Churchill above - it's the worst apart from all the others. But I would massively prefer a PR type version to what we have in the UK and US.

 

[sufi]

what's the better alternative to democracy?

we all know that least worst is a poor compromise and that is the reason why democracy is like a sacred cow, but

you don't have to defend democracy, we all know its a bit shit

 

[sufi]

it's amazing that trump has attracted this sort of cult following even though he's so blatantly dodgy - they could have invaded the capitol with party flags but they are carrying his name

trump as a figure is important isnt it - a proper personality cult.
no obvious successor figure except maybe his horrible daughter, like le pen's daughter

if he goes to jail he would still be like a toxic martyr an anti-ocalan, and if when he dies he'll be like a sort of elvis/lenin mashup

 

[martin]

BTW - one for all you Scandi church-burners:

 

[thirdform]

Er... I dunno. I think it would have been best if they won it. If they'd just fucked it off wouldn't they have just lost by more? I don't really know what they could have done to undermine it.
But totally you're right, they thought they would win - Cameron thought he'd win - by miles. Which was also a problem. I think if they had thought about what a Leave win might mean then it wouldn't have all been such a fuck up afterwards.

Well no, fucking it off means not seeing it as legitimate.

The problem was the 'flagship' remain campaign were never properly political prior to the referendum. Their whole politics orbitted around the EU. they would have lost even harder come a second ref. You ask your archetypical remainer about the EU's border externalisation regime and how the EU's policies leave many refugees stranded and they simply didn't care. Because prior to 2015 the EU was somehow a bastion of the rights of the oppressed and workers. I don't have a problem with people saying EU integration is better for the British economy, (so long as they are truthful this is for the bosses) but so many of these people thought they could conduct this battle on leftist grounds, and that itself was painfully incompetent. Of course, the lexiters were even more farcical, but that is ideology for you. You are most ideological when you are most pragmatic and constructive.

 

[Leo]

we all know that least worst is a poor compromise and that is the reason why democracy is like a sacred cow, but

you didn't answer the questions. what's the better alternative?

 

[thirdform]

I guess. And of course if you feel that all political avenues are closed to you then you move to direct action - that's why you get terrorists/freedom fighters. Not getting into that, but actually, now I think about it, that's kinda what rankles so much about the right in the US just now - they are not having anything denied to them, they controlled the house, the senate, the presidency, most of the press and now the supreme court - and they lost fair and fucking square - and yet they're acting as though they are an oppressed people under the yoke of conquering invaders or something.
That's the issue isn't it? They don't need to make those grand gestures but they really think that straight white men are the most oppressed minority in the world.

I mean, it's just inverted identity politics, which they of course stole from the left. Which indicates that they have no real social base remaining, just like the left. They can only ever appeal to people invested in politics.

 

[thirdform]

Well the US 2020 election was won by a large margin - seven million votes, a landslide in the electoral college. I don't see how that could be called a draw, it's one of the biggest wins ever.
Brexit. I dunno. The point is, it wasn't really thought through, they said simple majority and so I don't think it was a draw either really, it's not contested in terms of the count.

It was one of the biggest wins ever because Trump is a hindrance on the longterm survival of the republican party. The sniper of the state will have his plug pulled when business with him is complete (I.E: in that case, killed by his superiors.) is a phrase we often use in TR. A Trump victory would have utterly slaughtered the midterms in 2022.

 

[constant escape]

I mean, it's just inverted identity politics, which they of course stole from the left. Which indicates that they have no real social base remaining, just like the left. They can only ever appeal to people invested in politics.

And everyone else is subject to libidinal manipulation? Not disagreeing, just... wondering.

Upon second thought: Or do you mean the heart of any would-be base is just beyond the reach of would-be manipulators"

 

[constant escape]

Admittedly I;m rather confined by this libidinal-systems-theory perspective right now, in which the central agency can be considered magic. So I might be somewhat askew, given I haven't really digested enough of what I;m being exposed to.