'Postmodernism' as Existential Threat.

[luka]

and we haven't.

 

[vimothy]

very easily

there were many, many pro-slavery arguments on ethical grounds made in the U.S. before the Civil War

generally on grounds that slavery is some combination of 1) natural 2) better for slaves than freedom

all made by people who nominally believed in a universal morality

in what sense do they believe in a universal morality? clearly there are two categories: those for whom slavery is moral and those for whom it is not. in which case it's not a universal morality

 

[luka]

and you'll confront this fundamental problem everywhere you look not least in terms of coronavirus.

 

[vimothy]

not berlin's sense anyway

 

[constant escape]

I think what I was getting at is that postmodernism (as a condition) seems unable to bring about new ways of living (as you mentioned, modernisms obsession with newness, finding new ways of living re: marxism and etc. being a huge part of that). You can look at the current tumult as a rebellion against this limit, the inability to escape the current moment, in accordance with a rebellion against any specific oppression. (not to undermine the extent of the oppression)

Sort of like being prompted to procure some example on the spot, and being unable to. Something impotently artificial about the attempts to "bring about new ways of living", as if the process is being short circuited and deprived of the ability to organically develop into something of genuine, and perhaps novel, value.

And arguably the primary requirement for such a process is belief in the process, and that kind of belief seems to have been shaken across the board, no? Like we can't engage in something that history has ostensibly demonstrated as being ineffective - but perhaps ineffective at absolute transcendence, which is arguably not the thing we should be aiming at.

Perhaps that is the lesson to learn, a sort of cosmic temperance.

 

[constant escape]

We can't move if we don't believe the ground is stable, but perhaps our idea of movement is unnecessarily predicated on notions of enlightenment that ought to be jettisoned.

 

[luka]

temperance is not something you can establish as a universal value as you can only find it in the realtionship between self and outside

 

[constant escape]

But can it be a universal practice to temper your beliefs with whatever seems to out-do them?

 

[luka]

But can it be a universal practice to temper your beliefs with whatever seems to out-do them?

what do you mean by out-do

 

[constant escape]

Not temper them just with what opposes them, but with what out-does them.

 

[vimothy]

but they are not just arguments.

there's nothin to prevent ppl bringing them up pre-post-modernism, or pre-modernism, or at any time

 

[luka]

But can it be a universal practice to temper your beliefs with whatever seems to out-do them?

use dissensus as a microcosm to exaplin

 

[constant escape]

I mean in a dialectical sense. My belief is out-done by the belief that essentially preserves the heart of my belief, but embodies it more robustly.

 

[luka]

there's nothin to prevent ppl bringing them up pre-post-modernism, or pre-modernism, or at any time

explain

 

[luka]

I mean in a dialectical sense. My belief is out-done by the belief that essentially preserves the heart of my belief, but embodies it more robustly.

i dont follow

 

[constant escape]

there's nothin to prevent ppl bringing them up pre-post-modernism, or pre-modernism, or at any time

Perhaps its not that these arguments could not have been raised prematurely, but that they were not. Save for the prophetic few, whose cosmic telos it is to foresee.

 

[constant escape]

i dont follow

So you keep tabs on your beliefs, and their shortcomings. How can my belief system falter, or overlook vital things? Essentially auditing your operating system, and perpetually supplanting it with a more informed operating system.

What could be universal is that every operating system, ever value system, is suited for such audits.

 

[luka]

lets say, broadly speaking, the anti-postmodern position is we were cruising before the clever jews etc invented these ideas

 

[luka]

they undermined our self-confidence popped our balloon, no?

 

[constant escape]

You would constantly be tweaking the recipe of your own personally koolaid, so as to prevent a static operating system from ossifying you.