Reggae Roots in Techno?

phil.

Well-known member
Started reading Joe Muggs' book the other day, and the Dennis Bovell chapter led me to another interview where Bovell talked about recording "Riot in Lagos" at his studio with Ryuichi Sakamoto.
I started to record and I recorded a drum track that he wanted. He said ‘right, play that back’. As I played back something he’d be jotting on his manuscript paper (musical notation sheets - Ed) and then he’d say ‘Roll’ and he recorded that whole piece. Then I proceeded to cut it up and dub it and he was like ‘Yeah thats what I want’ as thats the dub thing that he wanted and that hadn’t been done until then as far as I know. And that track cause quite a stir.
Reminded me of an old @thirdform tweetthread about coming to techno through reggae.
I know people love to talk about techno's roots in funk and soul, but for me personally 80s digi reggae laid the blueprint

I think, between "Riot in Lagos" (not to mention Summer Nerves) and Cabaret Voltaire's debts to dub, that it's possible to make a case dub played a non-trivial (albeit secondhand) role in techno's development from the very start. So, who wants to do it? Let's build the cannon a little.

I'll start with Keith Hudson "Felt We Felt the Strain" as the first 'dub techno' track. It's even got some "Strings of Life"-like melodic stabs in it.
 

phil.

Well-known member
I gotta brush up on my Detroit stuff, it's been a while since I listened to any pre-'85 records. OFC digi dub & bleep there's a lot of crossover, Glitch's clocking Prince Jammy as the prime example of that is spot on. But I'm really trying to find some 1st wave Detroit records that use similar production approaches, leaving that kind of space in the mix, using similar frequencies.

As a sidenote, there's better rhythmic dub/techno examples than this but I wonder if the tones in Black Beard "Tell Yuh So" were what caught Sakamoto's ear in particular.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
yeah, I had a more private discussion with shawn o'sullivan outside of that thread about this (extremely knowledgeable guy on the US scene.) His take was basically that you can only really make that claim when techno gets imported to the UK, or through new york house. As a whole, detroit was basically the crossroads between black american disco and funk, and euro synth music. It seems to me that to build this canon one has to emphasise the housier aspects of techno. In that sense, there is heaps of garage-y things that could go in there.

That discussion also made me realise that the americans don't particularly think of techno in this way we do in the UK as a development of (post)windrush) transatlantic black music from UK, USA and Jamaica. That's more of a brit-centric interpretation. Obviously they see it in a lineage of black music, but that only peripherally involves Jamaica or even the rare soul and hard bop jazz dance records. That's got more to do with hip hop and new york, for obvious demographic reasons.

The take that it is white synthpop gotten wrong is an accurate one, if not a little reductive cos white synthpop was in essence disco gotten wrong.

All that being said I'm not a detroit fundamentalist and I do think new york and chicago tend to get (under)written in techno historiography even though first wave detroit was basically house, got broken by house djs, was made for house clubs.`
 
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phil.

Well-known member
His take was basically that you can only really make that claim when techno gets imported to the UK, or through new york house.
...
The take that it is white synthpop gotten wrong is an accurate one, if not a little reductive cos white synthpop was in essence disco gotten wrong.
I think the fun for me in this line of thinking is that it accepts a standard eurocentric view of techno (as being primarily derived from synthpop + some industrial music) and complicates it on that premise by focusing on the dub elements in some of that music. It's not good history, just an (hopefully) interesting exercise.

Definitely not a Detroit fundamentalist either, but I tend to think of techno beginning as a regional style of electro which outgrew that description in a couple of years. Your characterization is a lot more detailed and accurate. The house angle is definitely the most solid for making a real case.

But on the electro tip, in that same Muggs interview Bovell credits Tim Westwood for making "Riot in Lagos" a pirate radio hit. Just to keep pulling that thread there's gotta be a couple electro tracks there that fit well between dub and techno.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
I think the fun for me in this line of thinking is that it accepts a standard eurocentric view of techno (as being primarily derived from synthpop + some industrial music) and complicates it on that premise by focusing on the dub elements in some of that music. It's not good history, just an (hopefully) interesting exercise.

Definitely not a Detroit fundamentalist either, but I tend to think of techno beginning as a regional style of electro which outgrew that description in a couple of years. Your characterization is a lot more detailed and accurate. The house angle is definitely the most solid for making a real case.

But on the electro tip, in that same Muggs interview Bovell credits Tim Westwood for making "Riot in Lagos" a pirate radio hit. Just to keep pulling that thread there's gotta be a couple electro tracks there that fit well between dub and techno.

Imperial brothers - we dub to scratch mix.
 

william_kent

Well-known member
the missing links between reggae and electro?


Paul Blake & The Blood Fire Posse - Rub A Dub Soilder Scratch Version ( 1984 )

pre-sleng teng digital reggae with electro influences ( just the keyboard sound and the reference to scratching - I can't find the version on youtube that I own on 12" that actually has the annoying scratching noises, but I prefer the "scratch free scratch" version )

and from the world of pop reggae:


Eddy Grant - Time Warp ( 1981 )

pop / disco / reggae / electro crossover ( in retrospect this one was far ahead of its time... although apparently it was played at the Paradise Garage so could have influenced people in Detroit via NYC )
 
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william_kent

Well-known member
Keith Hudson "Felt We Felt the Strain"

this was originally released on Joint International, a New York label, so it's conceivable that this was heard by people outside of the roots reggae scene at the time, so in an imaginative timeline we have JA ( where it was recorded ) -> NYC ( where it was first released ) -> Chicago & Detroit
 

phil.

Well-known member
That's what I'm talking about lads! We at this pace we'll have the whole thing fleshed out in a month and we can get on to the real project; making the case for doo wop as techno
 

william_kent

Well-known member
Larry Levan mixes reggae legends Sly & Robbie on the Padlock EP released on Garage Records


Gwen Guthrie - Peanut Butter ( Larry Levan Mix ) ( 1985 )

the Detroit connection:

“I’m originally from New York, and moved to Detroit at the age of 12. Each summer I’d go back to New York to see my family as my father still lived there. When I got to around the age of 17, I started to go to the Paradise Garage with my cousin Berry and some of his buddies. I think I went about five or six times before it closed.

“It was some of my earliest experiences of clubs, going in at 1 am, and leaving at 12 pm the next day. I used to wait until the music stopped. Watching Larry Levan and seeing this wonderful atmosphere, you just couldn’t leave until the music stopped. Some of these records are in my record crate and I play them out now, and some remind me of memories and moments of seeing people just really loving and embracing the music. Some tracks have a message behind them, and some were just about enjoying the vibe at the time. As I started my path of creating music, I would think about how the tracks I was making would sound on a sound system like the Paradise Garage, and what people would vibe like. Whether it was instrumental or vocal, my inspiration definitely came from there.”
— Kevin Saunderson
 

william_kent

Well-known member
now that I've mentioned Gwen Guthrie it reminds me of another Paradise Garage / reggae crossover

the original Paradise Garage version:


Gwen Guthrie - Ain't Nothing Goin' On But The Rent ( A Larry Levan 12" Mix ) ( 1986 )

edit: finally found the Larry Levan dub mix ( don't click on the vid above, skip to the superior version below )


Gwen Guthrie - Ain't Nothing Goin' On But The Rent ( Dub Mix ) ( 1986 )

and the UK reggae do-over, swaps out the bass line, but borrows from the melody


Mikey General - Dancehall Vibes ( 1986 )
 
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william_kent

Well-known member
now that we're making up alternative narratives I'll assert pretend that dub techno was really invented circa 1980 in the UK


The Detonators - Lift Off ( 1980 )

rumoured to be a "The Specials" side project

doom laden outer space themed intro leads into spacey synth trills, almost four to the floor kick drum, gated delay that would do rhythm & sound proud
 
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