The Feminine Perspective against the Manosphere

[...]

I propose that feminine culture can counteract the toxic masculinity endemic to the manosphere. In my previous thread on Judith Butler, many people refused to act feminine even for progressive purposes. That's fine. No one has to be feminine if they don't want to be. My point was that feminine men exist, are under-represented, and that their femininity has a progressive import in the context of contemporary identity politics. Thus, I aim to promote femininity to fight the manosphere.

It's tempting to say that all we have to do to promote feminine culture is listen to women and give them what they want. But there are two additional issues here: (a) very few men actually know what women want (hence the manosphere); and (b) men should promote feminine culture in their own uniquely male ways. They don't have to, but it sure helps.

Finally, there's a deeper issue. Some will deny that culture is sexed, they will reject the distinction between feminine and masculine culture. In response, I argue that the feminine perspective is already under-represented in society. To deny that culture is sexed amounts to a repression of the feminine perspective. If we value womens' views, our theory ought to take into account the existence of a distinct feminine perspective, one universally accessible to men and women alike. The bottom line is, we should represent femininity in our culture and doing so, in my opinion, is everyone's job, no matter their gender.

 

[wg-]

Who do you think was the better MC, No Lay or Shystie

 

[...]

Who do you think was the better MC, No Lay or Shystie

You know, I actually am a MC and rap fan, and even I never heard of either of those rappers. Thanks for the reccomendation.

 

[subvert47]

As someone who actually identifies as femme, I have to ask....

What the fuck is "feminine culture"?

 

[...]

The culture of the Other, of difference. At the very least we know that feminine culture is not masculine culture and that our definition of femininity negates our definition of masculinity. A binary relation stands between the two genders. The most basic example is that men are active and women receptive. However, I prefer to focus on the ego-centricity of men, their focus on the self-same subject, as contradistinguished from the alterity of women, their altruistic focus on the other person.

The bottom line is, if we can define masculine culture, then we can define feminine culture as what masculine culture is not. If we can't define masculine culture, then there might as well be no masculine culture and we might as well deny that culture is sexed.

 

[wg-]

 

[luka]

feminine culture

 

[subvert47]

The culture of the Other, of difference. At the very least we know that feminine culture is not masculine culture and that our definition of femininity negates our definition of masculinity. A binary relation stands between the two genders. The most basic example is that men are active and women receptive. However, I prefer to focus on the ego-centricity of men, their focus on the self-same subject, as contradistinguished from the alterity of women, their altruistic focus on the other person.

If you mean that boys and girls are mostly socialized differently and that this can lead to gendered differences in adult populations, then sure. And I suppose you could call those "cultures". And if you take a feminist view that gender is a hierarchy, then certainly femininity (as culturally associated with female) is regarded as inferior. Personally, I regard both masculinity and femininity as oppressive constructs which restrict everyone's human potential in varied ways. Gender stereotyping is bad, m'kay.

But it sounds more like you just wish some men were nicer.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Anyone else getting deja-vu all over again?

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

The most basic example is that men are active and women receptive. However, I prefer to focus on the ego-centricity of men, their focus on the self-same subject, as contradistinguished from the alterity of women, their altruistic focus on the other person.

how is repeating the silliest, most regressive stereotypes about men, women, masculinity, and femininity going to help anyone?

like, this is Men Are From Mars Women Are From Venus level gender essentialism. "women are receptive" is straight out of the Victorian era. it's a take that could come straight from tradwife Twitter. Simone de Beauvoir demolished that kind of nonsense 75 years ago.

how is someone who's such a Judith Butler fan peddling basically the exact opposite of their views?

of course men should be able express traditionally feminine traits, and vice versa. everyone should be able to express any trait that's not harming anyone else. that's the point. as @subvert47 says, masculinity and femininity are both oppressive, limiting constructs.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Anyone else getting deja-vu all over again?

of all the randos over the years, truly one of the most memorable

I half-think it's an AI someone has trained to spit out mashups of gender theory. truly bizarre.

 

[Mr. Tea]

like, this is Men Are From Mars Women Are From Venus level gender essentialism. "women are receptive" is straight out of the Victorian era.

Hogamous, higamous,
Man is polgyamous;
Higamous, hogamous,
Woman is monogamous.

 

[...]

how is repeating the silliest, most regressive stereotypes about men, women, masculinity, and femininity going to help anyone?

like, this is Men Are From Mars Women Are From Venus level gender essentialism. "women are receptive" is straight out of the Victorian era. it's a take that could come straight from tradwife Twitter. Simone de Beauvoir demolished that kind of nonsense 75 years ago.

how is someone who's such a Judith Butler fan peddling basically the exact opposite of their views?

of course men should be able express traditionally feminine traits, and vice versa. everyone should be able to express any trait that's not harming anyone else. that's the point. as @subvert47 says, masculinity and femininity are both oppressive, limiting constructs.

Butler's anti-essentialism is defined as the negation of essentialism. We need to posit essentialism to get to anti-essentialism. It's called "strategic essentialism." We use stereotypes to undermine sterotypes.

Go ahead, reject the claim that men are active and women receptive. You still can't reject the claim that we define femininity as the negation of masculinity. And besides, like I said, I focus on the claim that women focus on the other person and men focus on theirselves.

The claim "Men are the Subject, women are the Other" is literally taken directly from Beauvoir. So no Beauvoir did not demolish it.

Masculinity and femininity aren't the oppressive limiting constructs, traditional gender roles are. And by allowing anyone to act masculine or feminine regardless of sex, I'm promoting freedom from that oppression.

 

[luka]

what i would say in the lezza's defence is he did say hes still at university so hes at the oldest 21 so be a bit gentle while also laughing at him

 

[Mr. Tea]

what i would say in the lezza's defence is he did say hes still at university so hes at the oldest 21 so be a bit gentle while also laughing at him

Nothing wrong with some goading thrown in with the nurture.

 

[shiels]

I’ll tell you what would sort the manosphere out: skipping, men skipping together specifically.

 

[yyaldrin]

any dissensus member you would like to go skipping with in particular?

 

[shiels]

When you next in london big man?

 

[...]

One more thing: to the folks saying both masculinity and femininity are oppressive, what is your alternative to gendered behavior? What is this mysterious third type of behavior that we must classify as neither masculine nor feminine?

 

[jenks]

Behaviour. Just behaviour without any pre modification.