version
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It sounds as though you've constructed some vague, idealised femininity and decided everything you think is good is feminine.
The Feminine Perspective against the Manosphere
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It sounds as though you've constructed some vague, idealised femininity and decided everything you think is good is feminine.
No, I've repeatedly admitted that there are some bad feminine qualities.
Also, all notions of femininity or masculinity are idealized constructs. That's central to Butler's argument.
The notion that feminine culture is the culture of other people and plurality has a rich history in feminism dating back atleast 50 years. I didn't make it up. Now it's looking like you REALLY need to read Irigaray. Do you even know what her main ideas were?
I just don't know if it's right to say it's patriarchy since I think that happens in an effort to attract as many people as possible so stuff like "pursuit of self-interest at the expense of literally everything else, even the environment we destroy through pollution." would be done to be as attractive to women as much as possible through the gathering of resources, wouldn't it?
if, in the end, so much of what men do (consciously or subconsciously) is for the purposes of attracting women, why is it considered patriarchy instead of being men just doing what women want?
if, in the end, so much of what men do (consciously or subconsciously) is for the purposes of attracting women, why is it considered patriarchy instead of being men just doing what women want?
Right and like we've both already said some women do support the patriarchy. The patriarchal image of femininity depicts it as entirely dependent on masculine self-interest. The patriarchy tells women they can only act feminine by supporting masculine culture. So the patriarchy does try to attract everyone it just also tells women to disempower themselves and subordinate themselves to men so that the patriarchy can preserve the dominance men exercise over society.
I'm arguing that women can act feminine just by helping other people, thus they can contribute to feminine culture.
Because women don't just transparently want masculine men. Society trains women to want trads and it teaches them that feminine straight men by and large don't exist. A lot of women are followers unwilling to challenge the status quo by dating feminine men. Also, many women don't even know what its like to date a feminine man. They don't even know they can choose anyone but a trad because the patriarchy tells them trads are the only option. So when women say they don't want a feminine man, a lot of them don't even know what they're missing. How can they know they prefer masculine men over femboys when they have no experience dating a femboy?
version
Well-known member
No, I don't. I read some of Marine Lover of Friedrich Nietzsche and got fed up and ditched it.
I could tell. But you clearly do need to read her. Again do you know what the main idea of her philosophy is? Hint: it's in the title of one her most famous books.
version
Well-known member
I said I didn't. Why are you asking me again?
Speak for yourself, I find it sexy.
My mistake, I misread your post.
Ok, let me start over.
if many or most things men do are to attract women, to be or to acquire what women are interested in, why is it mostly confined to talking about self-interests of men and the patriarchy since I would think these things are also being done for what women also think are in their own self-interests?
I'm trying to get my thoughts in order here so maybe let me break it down and rephrase another way:
I guess I'm trying to figure out what most things considered bad are somehow ascribed to men, masculinity, patriarchy, etc. when men are doing things to be attractive to the most women - in other words, isn't it ultimately women and their _feminine_ desires that are shaping these actions, and if so why is it all about "masculinity, patriarchy" etc. instead of like "matriarchy" or "toxic femininity" or at least both
Maybe what I'm asking is why does it seem like everything that people consider bad is gendered as male when people are doing things to try to meet other's desires.
if many or most things men do are to attract women, to be or to acquire what women are interested in, why is it mostly confined to talking about self-interests of men and the patriarchy since I would think these things are also being done for what women also think are in their own self-interests?
I'm trying to get my thoughts in order here so maybe let me break it down and rephrase another way:
I guess I'm trying to figure out what most things considered bad are somehow ascribed to men, masculinity, patriarchy, etc. when men are doing things to be attractive to the most women - in other words, isn't it ultimately women and their _feminine_ desires that are shaping these actions, and if so why is it all about "masculinity, patriarchy" etc. instead of like "matriarchy" or "toxic femininity" or at least both
Maybe what I'm asking is why does it seem like everything that people consider bad is gendered as male when people are doing things to try to meet other's desires.
But that's the point: the patriarchy DOES influence women to act against their self-interest. Men do rule the patriarchy and they control society to influence women to dedicate their lives to the happiness of selfish men. Very often women choose masculine men and then those men don't actually act in that woman's interest. A feminine man will always act in the interest of both himself and his wife. Masculine Men don't care about what women want, they only care about their own self-interest. Feminine culture promotes collective interest, to contribute to it is to work toward a world where both men and women get what they want whether feminine or masculine.
Because men and women aren't equally powerful, they don't have equal control of society. Women choose masculine men because men created a beauty standard and tradition that overwhelmingly favored masculine men. Feminine desire doesn't make women choose masculinity, tradwomen are actually giving up their own feminine desires and surrendering their wills to their husband's masculine desire. Women can't have the feminine desire to satisfy masculine desire while leaving their own desires totally unfulfilled. Feminine desire is independent of masculinity. Too many women are willing to sacrifice what they want to fulfill their husband's desires. I'm saying both husband and wife can get what they want. I want to satisfy feminine desires. Tradmen don't. They just want to satisfy their own masculine desires.
First, I did say that both masculinity and femininity can be bad. We do discuss toxic femininity, but not as much as toxic masculinity, because, society tends to recognize bad feminine qualities while seeming to say that it can never be bad to act masculine or atleast support masculine men, if you're a tradwoman. Again, men don't act masculine to fulfill a woman's desires, they act masculine to fulfill their own desires. The moment you try to satisfy the other's desires, you're acting feminine.
I was talking about non-feminist traditional culture, the kind that still dominates our society. Was anyone talking about how masculinity is bad before the current discourse on toxic masculinity began? I guess there was Straw Dogs, but not much else. Was Hemingway not one of the most popular American novelists of the past 100 years? All he ever did was praise masculinity.
As long as I've been alive, it has been perfectly acceptable and quite common for people to talk shit about men. This is besides women also being held up as superior - the source of good in the world and/or "if it weren't for men this and that" etc.
Right but that's mostly a consequence of feminism. Traditional non-feminist society does value masculinity over everything else, IMO
That's not how history works. When society progresses it doesn't erase everything that came before it. We can't just throw away 1000s of years of history just because we made progress in the past 50 years. We're still influenced by traditional non-feminist society and we still don't live in a feminist society. Feminists do not dominate society like tradmen do. The idea that feminists have taken over society is a reactionary, ahistorical view that will achieve little more than to undo decades of social progress. And the whole manosphere movement dedicates itself to praising masculinity and denying toxic masculinity exists, while insisting men never act feminine. You yourself said that women aren't attracted to feminine men, yet masculine men are attracted to both feminine and masculine women. There's no penalty for a woman acting masculine, but according to you, there are massive penalties for a man acting feminine. So our current society very much still does overvalue masculinity while devaluing femininity. And we certainly don't live in a society that equally represents masculine and feminine culture.
Contemporary American society does value masculinity over femininity. The rise of feminism in America has only succeeded in allowing women to act masculine, whether it's as bosses in business or in online dating. Massive penalties exist for feminine man, as you yourself pointed out. Plus feminists face massive widespread backlash to this day, just like they always have. I think you just don't notice how much of society opposes or doesn't care about feminism because you probably only frequent left-wing circles. Don't let recent progress fool you: self-interest still dominates American society. Americans value their selfish desires over everything else.