Raw Patrick

Well-known member
'The Monstrous Soul' by Lustmord - built around samples from 'The Night of the Demon'

"Hounds of Love" by Kate Bush begins w/a Night of the Demon sample as well, dunnit.
 

k-punk

Spectres of Mark
A few scattered thoughts, not yet well-formed....(or not sufficiently anamorphormed)

1. Definitions. Whilst enjoying the proliferating list of ghostly and ghost-themed recordings (many of which I've never heard of, still less heard, but would love to), I'm very much in agreement with calls for more precision in the definition of sonic hauntology. (No doubt I've been as guilty as anybody else in being loose with the term's use.) Scissors' point is well-made but the alternative to ontology is not vagueness and amorphousness; it's more like paradox or anomaly, that which will not allow Being to stablise - ANamorphousness, perhaps. For instance, the anamoprhic blot is not vague; although apparently only a smear when seen head-on, it assumes a form when looked at awry.

2. Recording machines. Or 'technology has made us all ghosts', as Mr Penman , surely the pre-eminent hauntological critic, once put it. Part of the problem with finding a definition that is satisfactorily limiting is that recording as such is hauntological. The very existence of recorded sounds produces a critique of ontology, a disturbing of the distinction between being and non-being, presence and absence. Think it's not an accident that the name Ghost Box was partly a reference to television.

3. Screen Memories (1). I'm with Mike here 100%. I had the same misgivings when I saw the term 'memoradelia' being floated at blissblog. It's a great neologism, but I don't think it really captures what either Ariel Pink or Ghost Box are up to. Partly that's because it would be a mistake to conceive the past being invoked in these recordings as if it were ever present. Not because the memories are false, necessarily (any more than all memories are); more because they are screen memories, standing in for something else. Let's try this hypothesis: what haunts is that which cannot be committed to memory, that which memories both allude to and cover over. Hauntology concerns that which does not exist but that which insists, that which repeats without ever being present in the first place (that is, at any point of origin.)

4. Screen Memories (2). TV was a babysitter What Patrick says about the insinuation of the avant-garde into the domestic scene is absolutely crucial to the Ghost Box effect. The strangest Things secreted in kindergarten programming on tv and radio. (Co)incidental music. The uncanny ------ unhomely ------- haunt ------ habitation ----- habit-form.
 

Ness Rowlah

Norwegian Wood
Some of Biosphere's ouput would seem to fall into this category -
especially his "Patashnik" album with samples from the Kray twins movie
("We had a dream last night; we had the same dream") and also "Scanners".

The opening track described here
After a prologue of low crunching and rumbling, as if entering the set of a David Lynch movie, a voice pierces the emptiness: "I had a dream last night", says an innocent child at the beginning of our journey, but followed in sinister unison by a double-child, "We had the same dream".

Some of Jenssen's work for theatre and film (freely available from http://www.biosphere.no/mp3.html) seems to fit as well (on one of these there's a sample of what I think is one of the glass balls used on fishing nets rolling in a boathouse on a wooden floor - if you have ever heard this sound it really takes you back).
 

zhao

there are no accidents
k-punk said:
1. the alternative to ontology is not vagueness and amorphousness; it's more like paradox or anomaly - ANamorphousness

2. recording as such is hauntological.

3. it would be a mistake to conceive the past being invoked in these recordings as if it were ever present.

1. the other as mirage, sharing a space with non beings and figments.

2. perhaps this can be taken even a step further: that all music, and in fact all language beyond the word of mouth, is hauntological. a set of notes passed down from one's ancestors is information, formal or narrative, encoded in a particular language, losing and gaining more pieces through the process of many translations and remembrances, finally reaching us, interpreted by eyes and ears far removed from the real or imagined origin.

3. does it matter if these "strange parcels" which arrive unexpectedly have origins in the "real" or "present"? I'm with privileging perception and interpretation in the generation of meaning.
_____________________________

if clicks and cuts celebrate the glitch, accident, mistake... perhaps hauntology is an examination of memory as construct. maybe it is music which focus on residue, remnant, and the processing of the tattered shards of history (in the loose sense).
 

tate

Brown Sugar
k-punk said:
but the alternative to ontology is not vagueness and amorphousness; it's more like paradox or anomaly, that which will not allow Being to stablise - ANamorphousness, perhaps. For instance, the anamoprhic blot is not vague; although apparently only a smear when seen head-on, it assumes a form when looked at awry.

Provocative post, K-Punk, thank you.

One comment on the formation, ANamorphic, however. Though you made it perfectly clear in your graphic presentation of the word, the formation still strikes me as potentially confusing since some people may hear it as ana-morphic, which would mean something like 'toward form.' The origin of our English language alpha privative prefix (the a- or a-morphic, a-political, a-social, etc) derives from ancient Greek usage, where this particle was an old zero grade vocalic nasal n-. In ancient Greek it appeared as "a-" before a consonant and "an-" before a vowel, the same option that we inherit into English. But there is also of course the old Greek prefix, "ana-", which means "to, toward, up," or "down," depending, and which is also used in our language today. So in ANamorphic we have a double negative, as you well know, but one that is homonymous with another prefix with another meaning. Not that this is a problem, of course! (The negation of amorphic or 'unformed' by way of "AN-" was obviously what you were interested in exploring here, and I certainly understand the attractiveness of the formation.) Perhaps you prefer the ambiguity of a word that potentially means both "not Amorphic" but also "towards morphic."


k-punk said:
2. Recording machines. Or 'technology has made us all ghosts', as Mr Penman , surely the pre-eminent hauntological critic, once put it. Part of the problem with finding a definition that is satisfactorily limiting is that recording as such is hauntological. The very existence of recorded sounds produces a critique of ontology, a disturbing of the distinction between being and non-being, presence and absence.

The statement, "the very existence of recorded sounds produces a critique of ontology" is certainly a provocative way of putting it.

The first thought that comes to mind, however, is that this notion of 'recorded sound as critique of ontology' runs into an interesting question: yes, the recorded sound occupies a peculiar ontological space -- and perhaps it has critical potential when applied to traditional ontology -- but what about its amazing durability? I am thinking of many examples, just one being the amen break, which, though only a four bar drum break in 'origin', has enjoyed an unbelievably robust afterlife as a mutable and durable temporal articulation that can be used to form everything from early hip-hop to the familiar drum drone of something like Macc's "If . . . " (haha, I know, I know, for most of you Macc's tune is probably just another recent dnb pfft in the drumfunk mode, but I wanted to link to it b/c I find it to be a pretty gorgeous and 'haunting' piece, check the vocal sample)

To restate the question: does recorded sound offer a critique of ontology or does it comprise a special category? And what would this mean for 'hauntology' (which still seems a bit vague to me at this juncture)?

(nice aural correspondence between 'hauntology' and 'ontology,' by the way)
 

tate

Brown Sugar
As for this, and the business about screen memories:
k-punk said:
Let's try this hypothesis: what haunts is that which cannot be committed to memory, that which memories both allude to and cover over.
K-Punk's proposed hypothesis immediately reminded me of section IV of Benjamin's essay on Baudelaire ("On Some Motifs . . .), where Benjamin, discussing the structure of perception and consciousness, writes:

"The greater the share of the shock factor in particular impressions, the more constantly consciousness has to be alert as a screen against stimuli; the more efficiently it does so, the less do these impressions enter experience (Erfahrung), tending to remain in the sphere of a certain hour in one's life (Erlebnis). Perhaps the special acheivement of shock defense may be seen in its function of assigning to an incident a precise point in time in consciousness at the cost of the integrity of its contents. This would be a peak achievement of the intellect; it would turn the incident into a moment that has been lived (Erlebnis). Without reflection there would be nothing but the suddent start, usually the sensation of fright which, according to Freud, confirms the failure of the shock defense. Baudelaire has portrayed this condition in a harsh image."

And so I am just wondering what is new in the proposed notion of 'hauntology'?

k-punk said:
Hauntology concerns that which does not exist but that which insists, that which repeats without ever being present in the first place (that is, at any point of origin.)

Hmm. At this point it seems to me that once we get into a situation/definition where anything that "repeat without ever being present" can be defined as 'hauntological', then we run the risk of opening a space where, as Confucius* puts it, all language and music become hauntological. But if this is so (and maybe I am wrong), then how have we limited our definition? What have we gained for describing, diagnosing, or analyzing certain forms of sonic (or other) hauntology/spectrology?

Again, not trying to be confrontational, just genuinely intrigued here!

*haha, I mean Confucius the Dissensian writing upthread, not the ancient Chinese philosopher :)
 

BSquires

Well-known member
Better late?

Some more:

'In Heaven' from the Eraserhead soundtrack...

Richard Hawley - 'Coles Corner' with its invocation of crooners from the past...

Porter Ricks - 'Biokinetics' with that muffled underwater sound...

Whitehouse - 'Halogen' with various bits of thai pop music and other strange stuff playing in the background...

Finally I couldn't help thinking about 'Spectres' by Blue Oyster Cult but that's just me and definitely not part of the canon!
 

minikomi

pu1.pu2.wav.noi
id really like to hear a bunch of this stuff compiled into a mix along with some choice bits of field recording, movie quotes, atmospherics...

just a thought... how about the "screwed" chipmunks track wayne and wax did (link escapes me for the moment..), revealing the ghosts of the process - the technique revealed by manipulation..

edit: here, yeh: http://riddimmethod.net/?p=55
 
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k-punk

Spectres of Mark
Tate said:
Provocative post, K-Punk, thank you.

Perhaps you prefer the ambiguity of a word that potentially means both "not Amorphic" but also "towards morphic."

Absolutely... unintentional naturally, appropriately...


(nice aural correspondence between 'hauntology' and 'ontology,' by the way)

yeh, works better in a French accent of course...
 

Octopus?

Well-known member
Jim Daze said:
Some Current 93 ('What Shadows we are', distant childrens voices singing, and Virginia Astley, a track by Jah Wobble called 'A 13' that is both psychogeographic and hauntological, 'Ground Zero' dub, that White Noise record probably already mentioned, Sylvian......"World Of Echo".....................,feeling this 'canon' but did anyway, not sure I understand the definition,passes the time though back in my boring job.

I'd also definitely throw in the Current 93 / Thomas Ligotti collaboration "I Have A Special Plan For This World". Definitely Les Rallizes Denudes and their haunting wash of feedback and anguished, eternally echoing vocals (if they haven't already been suggested)...and what about Reynol's first CD, the empty jewel case ;)? Although, in all seriousness, quite a bit of their canon could fit nicely.
 

jd_

Well-known member
Boyd Rice hasn't been mentioned has he? I think something like "Embers" certainly fits in with this stuff although all his stuff probably fits. Gudrun Gut's "Move Me" deserves mention too I think for something newer. Both songs sound like mutations of traditional sounding things but recorded in a way that seems older than the originals.
 

k-punk

Spectres of Mark
Tate said:
And so I am just wondering what is new in the proposed notion of 'hauntology'?

The notion of screen memories is not integral; I merely introduced it as a means of moving away from what I thought was an undue emphasis on memory in the conventional sense.

Hmm. At this point it seems to me that once we get into a situation/definition where anything that "repeat without ever being present" can be defined as 'hauntological', then we run the risk of opening a space where, as Confucius* puts it, all language and music become hauntological. But if this is so (and maybe I am wrong), then how have we limited our definition? What have we gained for describing, diagnosing, or analyzing certain forms of sonic (or other) hauntology/spectrology?


I agree that this is indeed - at least at one level - a problem. Given that we wouldn't want to deny that language is by its very nature hauntological (surely Derrida had in this mind when he came up with - or chanced upon - the neologism).

But you're right: if that's the case, it seems that we couldn't be further from narrowing the definition.

(This is an issue for many deconstructive concepts; viz. if all discourse is always-already deconstructed, what is the point in referring to specific discursive/literary examples?)

But don't the artifacts on the hauntological sonic plane have a kind of reflexive relationship to the already hauntological nature of recorded sound? They don't just exemplify hauntological revenance; they also comment upon it, draw our attention to it, both textually and texturally.
 

k-punk

Spectres of Mark
minikomi said:
id really like to hear a bunch of this stuff compiled into a mix along with some choice bits of field recording, movie quotes, atmospherics...

that's a bit like what we tried to do on londonunderlondon actually...
 

Mike Powell

Revelatory
k-punk said:
But don't the artifacts on the hauntological sonic plane have a kind of reflexive relationship to the already hauntological nature of recorded sound? They don't just exemplify hauntological revenance; they also comment upon it, draw our attention to it, both textually and texturally.

I think this is significant; I mean, the swirly inconclusiveness of these ideas are incredibly alluring and essential to their integrity, but we are in fact dealing with Real Things here - sound, music. I remember having a similar frustration (I'm sure that anyone who has encountered Derrida/deconstruction experienced) of <i>what's the point of doing anything then</i>, and being assured that in a sense, the point is to find examples to substantiate this kind of perspective, rather than admit it as a foreclosure of the entire endeavor. Right.

I'm going to continue to harp on the dub thing, because I feel like either I'm completely off about it, or I'm going to be able to convince people that it's relevant. Compare an original track and its dub (right now I'm listening to Ken Boothe's "Old Fashioned Way," U Roy's "Dynamic Fashion Way," and Dennis Alcapone's "Spanish Omega," but surely there are better/richer examples. In the dub, you can hear where things have been erased, repeating but not fully "present" as they may have been in the original track. What I find fascinating about the gesture is that the sonic "negatives," if you will, suck you in, but they're placeholders; the accent of their presence is in fact their absence in the track. In that sense, the hauntological elements are made quite explicit.

In a way then, dub is like a "training wheel" for hauntology or hearing music as haunted; by having the original placed next to the dub, you actually hear the absences as they've been created. In something like Ariel Pink, the music is similarly "haunted," but that way to begin with -- I find his music fascinating precisely because I always have the experience of being forced to mentally conjure the elements that have been degraded or erased, but in reality, were never fully "present" to begin with. I'm not sure if that places too much emphasis on the imagination of an "ideal" in his music or not, but that's where I find the haunted quality of it.

This post is getting a little thick around the waist, so I'll hold off on more until later. (I take it most of the people here are in the UK, whereas I'm EST & it's not <i>too</i> late.)
 

D7_bohs

Well-known member
When Zizek spoke in Dublin last November, he talked -to what point I now can't remember - about a piano piece by Schubert in which the composer notated a 'third part', not actually played (obviously) but to be suggested in the playing; and then he takes it out .......so firstly the performer has to play in order suggest an unheard extra part, and then he has to play it in such a way as not to suggest it ....
 

john eden

male pale and stale
I thought someone had mentioned Raudive (whoo! self-referential hauntology ON THIS ACTUAL THREAD!).

Psychic TV (again) - used some of his techniques. I think their track "Breakthrough" was about Raudive. They also used to leave one track clear on their 24 track tape (making 23 natch) to see what happened... - all sorts of bizarre rattlings apparently showed up when they were recording "Godstar" which may or may not have been the ghost of Brian Jones, etc.

Also - Coil's idea of "Sidereal sound" fits in here.

I like the idea of dub as a training process for hauntology - lots of people who got into dub via the experimental side ended up becoming full blown reggae heads when they found the vocal versions of dubs - it's a real SHOCK when you've heard say a scientist dub for years and years and then one day you stumble across the full vocal "original" version - very disorientating.

I think Simon has used the Lee Perry ghost quotes in his blog, but there is more along these lines in Kevin Martin's sleeve notes for Macro Dub Infection.
 
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