luka

Well-known member
yeah but there was an orignal article they were riffing on that bascially was sleeking metal ducklings! i promise! i remember it!
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
This sounds like conspiracy talk to me

Oh no you're right

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/sep/18/september11.politicsphilosophyandsociety

'It was the advent of the second plane, sharking in low over the Statue of Liberty: that was the defining moment. Until then, America thought she was witnessing nothing more serious than the worst aviation disaster in history; now she had a sense of the fantastic vehemence ranged against her.
I have never seen a generically familiar object so transformed by effect. That second plane looked eagerly alive, and galvanised with malice, and wholly alien. For those thousands in the south tower, the second plane meant the end of everything. For us, its glint was the worldflash of a coming future.'

WORLDFLASH
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
That said, there are some good bits in that article:

'They flailed and kicked as they came down. As if you could fend off that abysmal drop. You too would flail and kick. You could no more help yourself than you could stop your teeth from chattering at a certain intensity of cold.'

The idea of fending off the fall. Not seen it put like that before.
 

luka

Well-known member
This sounds like conspiracy talk to me

Oh no you're right

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/sep/18/september11.politicsphilosophyandsociety

'It was the advent of the second plane, sharking in low over the Statue of Liberty: that was the defining moment. Until then, America thought she was witnessing nothing more serious than the worst aviation disaster in history; now she had a sense of the fantastic vehemence ranged against her.
I have never seen a generically familiar object so transformed by effect. That second plane looked eagerly alive, and galvanised with malice, and wholly alien. For those thousands in the south tower, the second plane meant the end of everything. For us, its glint was the worldflash of a coming future.'

WORLDFLASH

ah! i knew it i knew it! even google was gaslighting me. i couldnt find that fucking thing anywhere.
 

luka

Well-known member
its a constant cycle of debunking and rebunking. rationalwiki is not the repository of all truth and wisdom any more than richard dawkins (or martin amis) is
at the end of the day its a gut decision.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
I tend to think conspiracy theories are rooted in a justified suspicion of the rich and powerful, who in a sense DO conspire to control things.

It's interesting that conspiracy theories seem to give people comfort, in 'explaining' a world that is incomprehensibly complicated, and yet simultaneously revolve around a conception of government as being incredibly devious and capable, so much so that resistance would seem to be effectively futile.

I was reading about school shooters yesterday evening (as is my wont), and a recurring type is the downtrodden nerd who thinks himself completely powerless but who grasps a sense of power through a sort of Nietzchean philosophy which enables him (usually its a he) to see through the world that everybody else apparently enjoys and thrives in.

Perhaps that's another reason conspiracy theories thrive - people recognise their own powerlessness, subconsciously, and not only do these theories allow people to gain power OVER their powerlessness through their apparent understanding of what is holding them down, but also they MAGNIFY that powerlessness. After all, if you worked hard enough, were lucky enough, and sufficiently ruthless enough, you could rise pretty high in the world. But if you have to be a lizard or a satanist to really be powerful, then power is itself detestable, so why bother?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
It's interesting that conspiracy theories seem to give people comfort, in 'explaining' a world that is incomprehensibly complicated, and yet simultaneously revolve around a conception of government as being incredibly devious and capable, so much so that resistance would seem to be effectively futile.

Yep, I think this is pretty much incontrovertible. I can't recall whether I thought of this or read it somewhere, but one way of thinking about it is that in a world where God is dead (c.f. your Nietzsche reference), people would still rather believe in 'Satan' than in nothing at all. There is comfort to be gained in believing the world works according to some kind of plan, even if those in charge of that plan are monstrously evil, rather than just drifting rudderless through a cosmos that couldn't care less.

I also think the same kind of psychology underlies pretty much all conspiracy theories, from the relatively harmless (e.g. the flat-earth loonies Luke's been having fun with on FB lately) to those that are most definitely not harmless - the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, AGW skepticism, the anti-vaccine superstition and so on.
 

droid

Well-known member
My theory is this. At some point between the years 1986 and 2011, someone traveled back in time and inadvertently altered the timeline of human history so that the Berenstein Bears somehow became the Berenstain Bears. This is why everyone remembers the name incorrectly; it was Berenstein when we were kids, but at some point when we weren’t paying attention, someone went back in time and rippled our life experience ever so slightly. Perhaps other things have changed as well, but this is the only detail we’ve discovered so far.

:cool:
 

luka

Well-known member
I'm very suspicious of pop psychology attempts to explain away conspiracy theory aa just the product of a losers with small dicks mentality. It's trite, it's smug and it's too dismissive. It's a way to avoid thinking about it.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
DISCLAIMER: I've written a load of stuff and it's all jumbled up and confused/confusing. However, I spent a good ten minutes doing so and I'm reluctant to just give up.

Perhaps I conjured that association up with the reference to school shooters but I didn't intend to mean it as 'all these conspiracy theorists are losers with small dicks'. More that, in our culture of massive inequality between rich and poor, educated and non-educated, most of us ARE losers. I agree that such an explanation would be trite, if it was the ONLY explanation. It's a fascinating subject and I wasn't attempting to sum it up in that post.

The 'no smoke without fire' aspect to conspiracy theories is obviously not to be underestimated (and in fact ties in with the idea that its the powerless who gravitate towards them), cos it's obvious that the rich and powerful ARE, in fact, conspiring to fuck people over (or at least to get richer, whether or not at the expense of others). Perhaps this is what you're referring to by saying I'm 'avoiding thinking about' conspiracies?

Anecdotally, I find there's a lot of Illuminati chat in the rap forums I lurk on, and in YouTube comments under rap videos, etc. Now obviously, African-Americans have very good reason to suspect that there's a conspiracy against them... because there is!

Also, the collapse of trust in media and public institutions - again, with much justification - plays into this.

In summary: 'Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.'

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-do-people-believe-in-conspiracy-theories/

The idea that such beliefs are held only by a bunch of nerdy white guys living in their parents' basements is a myth. Surveys by Uscinski and Parent show that believers in conspiracies “cut across gender, age, race, income, political affiliation, educational level, and occupational status.” People on both the political left and right, for example, believe in conspiracies roughly equally, although each finds different cabals. Liberals are more likely to suspect that media sources and political parties are pawns of rich capitalists and corporations, whereas conservatives tend to believe that academics and liberal elites control these same institutions. GMO conspiracy theories are embraced primarily by those on the left (who accuse, for example, Monsanto of conspiring to destroy small farmers), whereas climate change conspiracy theories are endorsed primarily by those on the right (who inculpate, for example, academic climate scientists for manipulating data to destroy the American economy).

Study cited in The Independent says people under more stress more likely to believe in conspiracy theories:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...-psychology-study-anglia-ruskin-a7023966.html

It is bizarre how easy and enjoyable humans find believing in stories, imaginary worlds, etc. When you're a child you can believe anything, and seek out imaginary worlds and roles (inventing them if they're not available in books). It's tremendously satisfying, even as an adult, to imagine things. I wonder if there's any correlation between conspiracy theories and the most popular/recurring narrative forms? What I mean by this is, perhaps conspiracy theories could be shown to be about rearranging the facts of events into forms more palatable and compelling to us.
 

droid

Well-known member
Have any of you ever had an acquaintance or friend transformed into wide eyed conspiracy freak? Ive seen it happen a couple of times and in my experience its usually the symptom of an underlying psychological issue.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
I recently met a really nice and clever mate's mate who at one point started telling me about how the Sumerians had been given technology by aliens. He seemed completely sane to me.

Just occurred to me how the two incidents that are most associated with conspiracy theories - JFK's assassination and 9/11 - were, in some respects, quite similar in terms of the effect they had on the national psyche. Hugely traumatic and (if you believe the official accounts) carried out by relative amateurs. It's hard to accept that one communist with a rifle managed to kill Kennedy. It's hard to accept that 19 hijackers were able to kill thousands of Americans, and almost flattened the Pentagon. In the latter case, it's almost an expression of the sort of American exceptionalism that arguably motivated Al Queada: 'THEY can't have done it! Only WE could!' (And 'We couldn't have let this happen - unless we MEANT to!')

Are conspiracy theories an American thing, by and large? There's something very American about them.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Have any of you ever had an acquaintance or friend transformed into wide eyed conspiracy freak? Ive seen it happen a couple of times and in my experience its usually the symptom of an underlying psychological issue.

Did a Howard Marks-sized weed habit have anything to do with it in either case, by any chance? Or other drugs?
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Also, Corpsey is absolutely right in that some conspiracies are obviously real. Even the standard explanation for the 9/11 atrocities is itself a conspiracy theory; a theory about a conspiracy of militant Islamic fundamentalists who planned and executed the biggest terror attack in history.
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
I was taught about the JFK conspiracy theory at school, and it was taught to us pretty much as if it was probably true. And (according to Wiki, my trusted source) the majority of Americans think there was a conspiracy/cover-up of some sort, too:

Public opinion polls have consistently shown that a majority of Americans believe there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy. Gallup polls have also found that only 20–30% of the population believe that Oswald had acted alone. These polls also show that there is no agreement on who else may have been involved.[12][150] Former Los Angeles District Attorney Vincent Bugliosi estimated that a total of 42 groups, 82 assassins, and 214 people had been accused in various Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories.[151]

It was only as an adult that I started encountering the concept of it actually being Oswald who shot Kennedy.
 
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