Grime-where did it all go wrong?

[Blackdown]

re bass in grime, that seems to be the territory of Footsie, who grew up around his dad's sounsystem. but whenever jammer, wiley or footsie say something like 'my dad would like this' about dubstep i wince.

re some grime getting cleaner and less like wiley's sino experiements etc, surely its the influence of US hip hop and the intention to get major deals that has driven this direction?

as for the idea of sound getting darker, what about all those Street Beats-era productions by Jon E Cash, starfox, Oddz, Eastwood etc?

production-wise to me Newhams and Ruff Sqwad are really on form right now.

 

[Badmarsh]

how do u know its gone wrong?

I have no particular interest in grime...i think its filled with egotistical idiots...but how can u say its gone down - what makes people think that?

 

[bun-u]

Grime’s in a lull for sure, but it has inspired too many youngers to take up mcing (and to a lesser degree producing and djing) for it not to be maintained for some time yet, and hit new peaks when new styles and talent come through. The reasons for the lull have been already mentioned, artists having to retune their vision in the knowledge that the big pay deal ain’t coming, the mainstream music industry not knowing how to market it, the lack of an internal infrastructure to carry it through on its own (and it therefore not being ready when the exposure came), the inherent divisiveness in it, the fact that core grime fans do not buy into the scene, the lack of a live circuit and so on. The thing is, most of these thing are getting sorted and maybe the next generation of artists are going to find it much easier to break through with or without the mainstream. I think the comparisons between jungle are a bit misleading because the famed 96/97 switch from jungle and garage was for me just a nuance taking place within a single scene. Grime is more like Rave-2step (91-01), it has its own continuum.

 

[Dubquixote]

someone told me that a primary way that many youngsters listen to grime is through mobile phones, with extremely short clips played on the shittiest imaginable speaker. that this phenomenon has contributed to tunes relying on gimmicky soundbites and low standards of production. or at least to a degree of stagnation in the development of new mc's and producers.

is there any validity to this?

 

[Gabba Flamenco Crossover]

The reasons for the lull have been already mentioned, artists having to retune their vision in the knowledge that the big pay deal ain’t coming, the mainstream music industry not knowing how to market it, the lack of an internal infrastructure to carry it through on its own... The thing is, most of these thing are getting sorted and maybe the next generation of artists are going to find it much easier to break through...

IMHO as someone who's been an sometime listener to the various garage offshoots since '97, without ever really having a cultural investment in any of them...

Scenes get killed when there's nowhere for the originators to go, either because mainstream culture isnt providing that space or because subcultural factors prevent artists from seizing it. In grime it seems to be largely the former - mainstream culture has spent the last 5 years in a backlash against dance musics' imperial phase of 1996-2000, and it's been all about skinny white boys with guitars. Dizzee, wiley etc. seem to have done as much as they possibly can to give grime mass appeal without killing what makes it unique, and have produced some great records in the process... but music's a bitch, in that artists can be as talented & hardworking as they like, but if the timing's wrong it just ain't going to happen as far as the mainstream is concerned.

If a scene's originators are prevented from going onwards & upwards, they start to get defensive about their status because there's only room for so many people on the boat, and understandably they arent keen to go back to flipping burgers or whatever they did before it kicked off. The language around the scene starts to become about staying true to the roots and so on... new ideas get frowned upon. The big names become more workmanlike about what they do, which puts incoming punters off, which makes promoters & labels play safe & less likely to give new talent the breaks it needs. I & many others saw this happen to techno in the late 90s. I wonder if grime's increasing gansta-ism & apeing of US hip hop production values is this same narrative in another form?

It's crazy that this whole mainstream vs. subculture schtick is still hanging around in 2006: but it is, because no artist has yet worked out how to use technology to build a career with no recourse to mass media & retail channels. Until they do, there will always be that bottleneck of 'getting signed, getting paid'.

Personally I wouldnt be suprised if popular culture swings back to dance & electronic music over the next few years - the indie rock thing is pretty tired now, the fuss over AM feels more like an endgame than a next chapter. But I dont know if the UK will ever embrace music as baleful & unsensual as grime is at the moment - people are always going to want funky house escapism over the undiluted desperation of life.

We need a funky grime revolution!

 

[outraygeous]

the above comment is tru, its well annoying on the bus home from work.

grime was falling asleep before skepta picked up the mike, he gave everyone in the scene levels to reach to.

if any of you have done radio for a long period of time, the fun wears off pretty quick and if your an mc you need a serious motivation to rip sets every week.

the grime thing will always be here, i think right now alot of mcs in the game have reached certain ages where its time to think about whats going on around them.

ive been listening to wiley since he was spitting on jungle on rinse 91.8, you gota think whats really keepin em going after 10 years.

sales are low, theres no venues coz of the racist police and the main people who actually attend grime dances are 'hipsters'. the main bulk of the grime audience can jump on a bus for free.

personally, i dont like this whole mixtape culture that has spread into grime aswell. to me grime is a dj playin instrumentals and mcs spitting on them. these 'polished' studio tracks just dont cut it sometimes. just like when heartless got signed, there was no way of capturing what heartless did in 3 minutes.

if the police get off grimes back and let the people peform in more clubs that would be a good look.

big up all the people in the scene pushing it forward and not jumping off it.

doing radio in the summer is long TRUST ME

 

[droid]

grime was falling asleep before skepta picked up the mike, he gave everyone in the scene levels to reach to.

TBH, I dont get the hype about Skepta. Maybe he has some merit as a motivating force in the scene - but I dont think hes a great MC - everytime I hear him hes rinsing the same old bars.

I think the lack of raves has lot to do with the decline of grime as well. How can you keep a scene vital when the police shut down all the gigs?

 

[gek-opel]

Surely for a while tho the lack of raves was a good thing (artistically anyway) cos it meant that the beats could get far more jittery and off centre (as no pressure for danceability)? Admittedly that meant the only way for public approval long term was thru the major record labels, leading to where we are now...

 

[throughsilver]

to go to luka's point. i've been really wary of making pronouncements like this. partly because i gave up on jungle in 1996 and i reckon i may have missed out at least a year of quality music. i haven't bought a single grime record this year (from january 1st) but i cherish each and every one i did buy...actually REALLY enjoyed my first "Grime Scene" comp yesterday...

That reminds me, actually. Is there a list (or could anyone make one) of essential Grime cuts for people who know very little about it, but are interested, like me?

I got the Wire Primer; is there anything essential post-that? I've liked the Ruff Sqwad I've heard.

 

[petergunn]

That reminds me, actually. Is there a list (or could anyone make one) of essential Grime cuts for people who know very little about it, but are interested, like me?

I got the Wire Primer; is there anything essential post-that? I've liked the Ruff Sqwad I've heard.

there's a couple threads on this floating around somewhere...

 

[petergunn]

could i also mention that D'explicit keeps getting better and better...

 

[Poisonous Dart]

Oh man...

This whole "Grime needs a revolution" or the wishing for a new crew to come along or some new Grime version of "Neo" and "Morpheus" is ridiculous. This is the type of thing that scenesters, hipsters, writers and music journalists worry about...not fans or people in the scene! Shit, when hip hop journalists in 1992/3 were worrying about when someone would "bring back that old NY hip hop" that's when Notorious B.I.G., Nas, Wu Tang Clan, and Black Moon and the Boot Camp Click showed up with RZA, True Master, 4th Disciple, Mathematics and The Beatminerz providing the sonic landscape. The fans witness the revolution firsthand because their at Ground Zero...observers and lurkers are the ones the worry, ponder, pontificate and write premature obituaries for Grime and wonder "what went wrong?" when you should be asking yourself "Did I REALLY like Grime or the surrounding culture in the first place?". One.

 

[shudder]

I'm pretty sure that at least some of those worrying above about the direction grime's taken/taking REALLY did like Grime and the surrounding culture in the first place! At least I hope they did, since their writing is how I learned about it!

 

[Poisonous Dart]

Goodness!

To further push the point of the parallels between the two styles of music, here's a link to a thread about what's causing the downfall of Rap/Hip Hop nowadays (on the commercial side, the music is sad, but on the underground the music are culture is in NO DANGER WHATSOEVER! Just look at the crap these people say...(by the way, the answer is 1997, easy). One.

http://community.allhiphop.com/showthread.php?t=249659

 

[satanmcnugget]

i think my feelings about grime (and who cares, really, Im from Toronto, Canaduh?) were pretty much articulated in a pvt email to Paul Autonomic about 2-3 years ago, when we both agreed that grime had become wanna-be hip-hop (same old narratives being played out, to paraphrase Paul)


now, im no grime-head, and i really could give two shits whether scenesters from the UK accept my opinion or not, but in my view the only thing worth paying attention to in "grime" nowadays is dub-step (big-up, to the Meme guy!)

 

[echevarian]

Basically at this point I'm willing to admit that I don't understand enough about the culture over in London to "get" grime. I'm willing to sit back and let whatever is going to happen, happen.


So yeah I'm fucking off back to ILX, have fun Logan.


Its a UK thing, I'm going back to listening to underground hiphop.


Hell, I'm moving to Minnesota so at least there'll be Rhymesayers.

 

[the undisputed truth]

what's there to get ???

poor young black kids thinking rap is a way out of the ghetto, dissing their elders in the game will get em a rep and possibly noticed enough to be the next Dizzee to get feted by the art litterati and handed some token prize just for being poor, black and literate...

...and bullshit intercrew battles at the gigs from bumrushing the mic and talking shit leading to the gigs being shut down and no outlets for performance at all

I'm not gonna pretend to know that's how it is there but that's what we got here with polynesian kids an freestyle battles in hiphop and replace dizzee with scribe...

sound familiar ???

 

[echevarian]

Yeah well, it isn't always like that.

Sometimes freestyle battles don't lead to random bullshit.

That was the whole fucking point of hiphop to begin with, to be able to prove your superiority without resorting to violence! Thats why rival crews would breakdance, to show off!


Do I even have to bring up Afrika Bambataa here?

 

[bruno]

about 2-3 years ago, when we both agreed that grime had become wanna-be hip-hop

so n.a.s.t.y, black ops, roll deep, ruff sqwad, east co, wolfpack, even slimzee, all wanna-be hip-hoppers? this is flat-out untrue.

 

[echevarian]

No, but maybe as an extension of the sound system culture that started in Jamaica and took two different forms, one in the UK with hardcore and the other in New York with hiphop.

Maybe, its still a strange little mutant of sound as far as I'm concerned.


And I like strange mutants.