Grime-where did it all go wrong?

[Cornflake]

i was wondering about how was doing that show in toronto. And yes, i never understood why grime shows never did a north american tour or multiple stops until talking to some managment. Kano's management didnt even want him on stage with Wiley doing a little battle last summer cause they were worried about how Kano would end up looking. Its just hard to fly over that many ppl as well....

I'm going to be getting my ass down for that Wiley show..i dont think i can do that skream one tho...

 

[Blackdown]

one other thing that I always thought was a problem with grime:

The idea that blogging is some sort of integral, productive part of the scene...

Yes, that's right, it's all bloggers' fault...

 

[simon silverdollar]

one other thing that I always thought was a problem with grime:

The idea that blogging is some sort of integral, productive part of the scene. Although there are journalists in every scene, I think that in the past the limited number of publications kept the number of people writing in proportion to the need for commentary. With blogs and forums, everyone can have one and theres no business side to it, so there's no market mechanism to demonstrate when the field is way over saturated. I think the mentality that writing commentary (even great commentary) is a bona fide position in an underground music scene caused the same people who have the analytic and interpersonal skills to be label bosses, label employees, distributors, promoters, station owners etc to sit back and discuss rather than do something productive that helps music come into existence. With jungle, people who were not artists (and had more money, connections, presentability and business know-how) made up a small, solid infrastructure that has maintained the drum and bass scene for over a decade. I know that for years Plasticman has been saying that this is what everyone should be striving towards. In hindsight I think he's been right all along, despite my initial misgivings about following in the footsteps of the drum and bass scene.

Basically I look at all the energy that has gone into documenting grime and arguing about it (blogs, DVDs,
RWD forum) and can't help but think that if half of that energy went into establishing the actual physical businesses that support the creation of new music and organization of live events, the grime scene would be in great shape. The music would be better, because artists could just concentrate on making tunes for established (albeit, small)labels and smashing the next rave rather than updating their myspace and chasing around album deals. I really don't think people should be criticizing the grime MCs for being lazy and arrogant. The MCs I have worked with have had strong work ethics and friendly attitudes, if you approach them the right way (Ears, for example. even Crazy T was really down to earth and eager to collaborate when I met him). They just can't do everything themselves.

there's not very many grime blogs. of those 'grime bloggers' that there are, a high proportion of them contribute a great deal more to the scene than simply writing about it, such as putting on nights, sorting out compilations, sorting out deals with Bleep, setting up labels, DJing: blackdown, chantelle fiddy, hattie collins, bun-u, prancehall all do at least one of the above.
i
'm probably one of the only 'grime bloggers' to be too lazy to do anything else!

(and i'm not even sure if i am a grime blogger anymore, but still...)

 

[Logan Sama]

Prices on flights are hideous.

Thats what stops things happning with any sort of regularity. That and the possible audience is miniscule for anyone who hasnt had an album out.

 

[Gabba Flamenco Crossover]

one other thing that I always thought was a problem with grime

The idea that blogging is some sort of integral, productive part of the scene...:

Yes, that's right, it's all bloggers' fault...

Not all the bloggers fault, but i kind of get Cuts's wider point here.

In my experience, promoting & managing nights & labels require very different skills to being an artist/producer & it's extremely rare to find someone who excels in both areas. But these days artists are expected to promote themselves, manage themselves, do their own accounts and generally be a jack of all trades - is this why a lot of internet promoted artists can only reach a certain level?

I tried to set a label off a few years ago, but in the end I canned it. I had a great idea for a label, but I was spending so much time & energy setting it all up that the bit I really loved - making music - started to suffer, which made it a bit pointless really.

 

[SIZZLE]

Lot of good, interesting points being made.

I strongly agree that more older, more experienced people should get involved with the scene in order to work on infrastructure in areas like labels, distribution, raves etc. I'm 26 and a far cry from being an organized label guy, promoter, etc but I found myself in that role when I got involved in the grime scene, partly because as a foreign outsider I had some perspective and opportunities that the LDN based guys didn't.

A piece of advice to all the spectators discussing at the sidelines: if you want to get involved you can, there is still a lot of space for people to contribute by doing any of the infrastructural things I've mentioned above. Early on a lot of people in the ends were non-plussed by me as an american white guy trying to be involved in their scene but once they learned that I had a serious interest in the music and wanted to help spread it wider everyone, basically without exception from the biggest to smallest artists have been really supportive and appreciative. Basically, the scene needs all the help it can get and more and more the main practitioners are recognizing that and so are ready to be reached out to.

Precious cuts, thanks for your kind words about our NYC raves, I felt like we did something good there too. And I did notice that things slowed down when I moved but I wouldn't say stopped, there are still some people working hard and doing big things, especially Dubquixote who played at our night and then started his own Dub War in the same venue, something I was delighted to see. Incidentally it seems I'll be moving back to NYC in 6 months or so for a while and I'll probably get back in the saddle doing parties, so watch this space.

A pet peeve of mine I'd liked to see addressed, although it is a major undertaking and one I am not prepared to dive into, is the distribution situation. Let's name names, I'm assuming, when Logan mentions distribution, he's talking about Essential Direct. They are primarily a house distributor who used to handle 2-step, now as the scene has shifted they've found themselves in the position of having people give them grime records. From what I can tell selling grime is NOT what they are passionate about. I get different mailers and promotions from them (in the hope of hearing about new grime records) and I think have NEVER seen any grime in their mailouts. The point is, for an enterprising person who actually likes this music and wanted to start a specialist distro, there is an opportunity here. And if you could overcome the problem that Essential have of not being offered many releases (because artists can get 50p-1£ more selling directly to shops) I would appreciate that very much as well . I've heard Logan on his show talking about doing some classic represses (ice rink vocals plz) and think this is also a great idea, I know quite a few johnny come latelys, myself included who missed a lot of classic releases and would snap them up very quickly indeed should they become available.

 

[Precious Cuts]

there's not very many grime blogs. of those 'grime bloggers' that there are, a high proportion of them contribute a great deal more to the scene than simply writing about it, such as putting on nights, sorting out compilations, sorting out deals with Bleep, setting up labels, DJing: blackdown, chantelle fiddy, hattie collins, bun-u, prancehall all do at least one of the above.
i
'm probably one of the only 'grime bloggers' to be too lazy to do anything else!

(and i'm not even sure if i am a grime blogger anymore, but still...)

Sorry, you and Blackdown are right. I shouldn't have called out blogging in particular, that was very sloppy of me. I still stand by my point that the overall amount of documentation and dialogue about grime has been way out of proportion to what is actually happening, and that that energy could have been used elswhere. I'm not trying to point fingers, its just an observation that with the internet being such a prominent part of grime's development there has been a shift from the kind of economy that supported jungle and UKG to this online/dvd/myspace hype machine that I think has yielded very little in the long run. I think it's probably an unavoidable shift, and that no group of people such as the blog community is responsable for it.

anyways, sorry again. Although I've never met you or martin, I know that both of you were instrumental in the small project I participated in.

 

[Blackdown]

its just an observation that with the internet being such a prominent part of grime's development ...

taking this point, if you discount the RWD forum (which preaches to the converted mostly), how exactly do you think the internet became prominant in grime's development if you discount blogs? sure there was ILX and DC++ but people like Luka, Simon, Woebot etc were instrumental in widening grime's fanbase.

i know i was late to the blogging game (2004), as i was busy writing in magazines, but i totally refute the point that blogging/writing is an unproductive use of energy to a scene. totally.

 

[the undisputed truth]

hiphops coming of age for me was when coldcut remixed rakim for paid in full and i read rakim didn't even like it...

...I say let grime follow in its example and let international unknowns totally fuck with grime accapellas. Promotion wise if it was in the form of a remix competition, the word would spread faster

Logans comments if i were to paraphrase about grime vocals and non grime productions doesn't equal true grime cracks me up, sounds a bit purist if you ask me...

...perhaps someone can tell me or link to the best grime production ever. I'd be well keen to hear the values involved cos i find most of them singularly unimpressive

on the one hand the people in the scene want it to blow up, yet many would still have it retain it's cultural roots...

If hiphop has shown anything, it's that you can't have it both ways. It's not a win win situation. Gangsta bling or keepin it real ala underground there's gotta be a loser



[edited for my horrible punctuation which probably still isn't correct ]

 

[SIZZLE]

Hell_SD: you want grime vocals, myspace.com 'send message' is you. Most the bigger MCs and MANY MANY unknowns, some talented, are on there, with audio you can hear. Logan is not a rapper, asking him for vocals is a waste of time.

And, although this is another debate, remixing people's vocals and producing things they don't like with them is IMO lame. I think it's very important to reach a consensus between vocalist and producer on what riddim to voice. Otherwise whatever you do will always be peripheral, secondary at best and parasitic at worst.

Having come through a few different dance related scenes the 'let's take a hiphop/reggae accapella and sprinkle some bits over it over our tune to make it sound more street' really, really annoys me. Finding a common ground between producer and vocalist is the way that innovation, change, new ideas happen ORGANICALLY, not because someone downloaded an accapella and put it over their 'crazy' new beat. And quality wise there is no substitute for having a vocalist fit themselves into your track. If you pay attention you will hear, even in rapped vocals, shifts of pitch and tone that match the beat/music. If people don't want to spit on your tracks it's because your not inspiring them. If you DO manage to inspire them they will spit fire on your track, if you come with something that is merely adequate, the flows you get will be of the same quality.


And yes, I have way too much time on my hands to post on here today, I'm avoiding working.

 

[the undisputed truth]

what I'm suggesting is Logan run a remix competition in conjunction with a label his radio show...

as for the producer/vocalist consensus...fuck that

you can't please everybody and I no more trust a producers judgement or a vocalists as to what the current trends in the market are than my daughters. If anything I trust their judgments more cos they are the demographic mass media need to appeal to if a *career* in music is to be successful...

...seems people are too precious about their shit these days. I like peripheral, secondary and parasitic, it's evolutionary and stimulating especially in remix fashion

 

[SIZZLE]

Hell_SD: you and I differ in many areas. re: consensus, I think that the idea of 'bold individual artistic vision' is overrated and some of the most interesting art forms of the past century have come through compromise and collaboration, being open to situations and adapting.

Hiphop is one of these. If Kool Herc had kept it real and stuck to his Jamaican roots, playing reggae on his sound in the south bronx with yardie's chatting on mic a lot of great music would never have been made. Instead he realized that the American beats were what would move the crowd and got young local kids to pick up the mic at his dances, a choice many credit with the birth of Hiphop.

If your goals are to be secondary and parasitic, that's all you. To me, parasitism is never something to aspire to. One of my goals, especially as an outsider, is to contribute and have a back and forth with the music that inspires me. I would be very unsatisfied working in grime if I couldn't get ratings from the artists I respect. Using the evolution analogy, to me things like esoteric remixes are more like a liger, the offspring of a lion and tiger. Fascinating and unique but unable to reproduce, a dead end. I am much more interested in those developments which branch outwards but also feed something back into the main gene pool and create inspiration for further variations. You often rail against colonialism, exploitation, etc. I see the approach you describe as a form of that, you want the cool vocals but want to take them out of the environment and standards that bred them and use them for your own purposes without regard for the goals of the people who made them. Given that your approach has yielded no results thus far I suggest you reconsider it.

This thread has got me writing essays. Must.. Get.. Back.. To.. Work...

 

[Precious Cuts]

taking this point, if you discount the RWD forum (which preaches to the converted mostly), how exactly do you think the internet became prominant in grime's development if you discount blogs? sure there was ILX and DC++ but people like Luka, Simon, Woebot etc were instrumental in widening grime's fanbase.

i know i was late to the blogging game (2004), as i was busy writing in magazines, but i totally refute the point that blogging/writing is an unproductive use of energy to a scene. totally.

I definitly agree that blogging/writing is beneficial to a scene. I would say that along with 1xtra, record store websites, soulseek, rinse fm and the sites you listed, blogs contributed significantly to the widening of grime's fanbase. I just think that there has been an unprecidented amount of documention and writing about grime (on the internet, as well as other mediums like DVDs, magazines and newspapers) compared to other genres of similar popularity, and that at a certain point there can be too much in proportion to the infrastructure of the scene. If the new fans can't go out and buy the music and buy tickets to raves, it doesn't seem to do the artists much good.

 

[Slothrop]

For once, I'm with Hell_SD here.

Hell_SD: you and I differ in many areas. re: consensus, I think that the idea of 'bold individual artistic vision' is overrated and some of the most interesting art forms of the past century have come through compromise and collaboration, being open to situations and adapting.

I don't think that's what he's talking about 'bold artistic vision', though. Or at least, not in the auteur / genius way. We've all pretty much agreed that hardcore scenes evolve organically via mutation and evolution, but those mutations have to come from somewhere. If you look at significant jungle records (say), there's loads of people who've made a conscious effort to push things forward. It's just that not everyone who's made a conscious effort to push things forward has made a significant jungle record. Hell_SD seems to be talking about opening things up to a new generation of producers to see where they can take things, rather than giving him personally the chance to decide where grime should go.

Hiphop is one of these. If Kool Herc had kept it real and stuck to his Jamaican roots, playing reggae on his sound in the south bronx with yardie's chatting on mic a lot of great music would never have been made. Instead he realized that the American beats were what would move the crowd and got young local kids to pick up the mic at his dances, a choice many credit with the birth of Hiphop.

On the other hand, if the early hip hop producers had carefully respected the tastes of the people that they were sampling, they probably wouldn't have got very far either. Likewise hardcore, jungle, garage. Moreover, scenes always outgrow their parents at some point - by your argument, hardcore should have listened to Derek May when he recoiled in horror at the sweaty ravers, and gone back to doing chin stroking techno

If your goals are to be secondary and parasitic, that's all you. To me, parasitism is never something to aspire to.

Personally, I'm not that bothered. Squarepusher's records weren't parasitic in that they sucked the jungle scene dry, they were just parasitic in that they nicked some ideas from it and then went off and did something cool on their own. They hardly made any imact on jungle at all, let alone damaging it. So if people liked them, then that's cool with me. But that's not really the point...

One of my goals, especially as an outsider, is to contribute and have a back and forth with the music that inspires me. I would be very unsatisfied working in grime if I couldn't get ratings from the artists I respect. Using the evolution analogy, to me things like esoteric remixes are more like a liger, the offspring of a lion and tiger. Fascinating and unique but unable to reproduce, a dead end. I am much more interested in those developments which branch outwards but also feed something back into the main gene pool and create inspiration for further variations.

I agree with you (although I'm also quite into 'dead ends' - they can turn out to be the start of something new and completely unrelated but still good), but I don't think that that was the point. I think that the back and forth is what this was all about. It's just that sometimes in the process of the back and forth, someone (in this case some vocalists) get left behind. That's evolution.

This thread has got me writing essays. Must.. Get.. Back.. To.. Work...

Ditto.

 

[Freakaholic]

Using the evolution analogy, to me things like esoteric remixes are more like a liger, the offspring of a lion and tiger.

It's pretty much my favorite animal. It's like a lion and a tiger mixed... bred for its skills in magic.

 

[Blackdown]

Using the evolution analogy, to me things like esoteric remixes are more like a liger, the offspring of a lion and tiger. Fascinating and unique but unable to reproduce, a dead end. I am much more interested in those developments which branch outwards but also feed something back into the main gene pool and create inspiration for further variations. You often rail against colonialism, exploitation, etc. I see the approach you describe as a form of that, you want the cool vocals but want to take them out of the environment and standards that bred them and use them for your own purposes without regard for the goals of the people who made them. Given that your approach has yielded no results thus far I suggest you reconsider it.

Awesome post matt. this is why i failed to get moved when i hear a "grime" record on an esoteric/abstract/electronica etc label. to extend the biology terminology, it's like seeing an ancient fish, dead and cold, preserved in the vaults of the natural history museum versus stumbling upon a shoal of them alive, in some dark crevice 10,000 leagues under the sea...

 

[the undisputed truth]

thanks slothrop...

...that's pretty much exactly what I meant

I heard you say sizzle that you even liked a grindie remix...

...I don't aspire to parasitism but it's there and some of it is actually quite good, i think you'll find some of it is symbiotic too

you can learn so much from going down a dead end, like where not to go again...

...I'm not so much hanging out to do a grime remix, it'd be nice to try but I got other things going on. Will do the myspace message thing though

cheers for the suggestion...

 

[Slothrop]

It's pretty much my favorite animal. It's like a lion and a tiger mixed... bred for its skills in magic.

Actually, a liger is a pretty close analogy to something like breakcore - it's huge with big fucking gnashy teeth, but it's essentially not going anywhere because it's not going to breed. It's also a bit messed in the head because of the conflict between its social and solitary instincts.

 

[Precious Cuts]

i was wondering about how was doing that show in toronto. And yes, i never understood why grime shows never did a north american tour or multiple stops until talking to some managment. Kano's management didnt even want him on stage with Wiley doing a little battle last summer cause they were worried about how Kano would end up looking. Its just hard to fly over that many ppl as well....

I'm going to be getting my ass down for that Wiley show..i dont think i can do that skream one tho...

The posters are up for the Scream show, also being headlined by Dillinja and Lemon D. I found out that Rene and Carl Collins from Blackmarket Records are promoting the show. Should be a good one.

Also, in regard to what Matt was saying about the need for a grime distributor, I agree. Back when the Blackmarket Records store was running, Carl was trying to get some grime in, there was no one to supply it on the distribution side. Also, Play De Record, the landmark hiphop record store in Toronto, even has a Grime section. They just can't get anything to put in there besides the dubstep releases that come out through nu skool breaks distributors and the bits that get released on The Beats or Ministry of Sound.

I would like to see some represses as well. Skepta's DTI EP for one. Also the old Macabre Unit stuff like "take time" and "slow jam".

 

[petergunn]

Prices on flights are hideous.

Thats what stops things happning with any sort of regularity. That and the possible audience is miniscule for anyone who hasnt had an album out.

yup...

tho, for example, there was a full house to see Jammer at Rothko in january... it can be done...