The World Cup Thread *******

John Doe

Well-known member
baboon2004 said:
The same applies in rugby to the French team. Okay, they have never won the World Cup, but that semi-final victory over NZ in 1999 will (as one of the most sublime matches of anything, ever) live in the memory after people have forgotten just who won that World Cup.

What game was that then? Sorry, that moment of sporting immortality must have passed me by cos I've never heard of it, let alone it remaining long in my memory (or those of my friends who follow sport).

Anyway comparing the rugby 'world cup' with football is just silly. In rugby you have a grand total of five nations - england, france, south africa, australia and new zealand - who are going to win it, and the rest just make up the numbers. I think this World Cup is showing just what a truly global game football is. And while I see this 'the game is about glory' line you're spinning, it's not the full story. You say England's defeat against Brazil in 2002 was a shameful capitulation - well, maybe, maybe not. Perhaps they didn't have enough in the tank to compete with the team who went on to win the trophy. There's no shame there. Against Argentina in France '98 we played brilliantly with 10 men, but still went out. Does that 98 defeat live long in the memory? Or give succour in dark times? Eh, well, not that I've noticed. We still lost. And it still grates. But there you go. That's the way it's been with England for about as long as I can remember: medicore but victorious against the smaller nations, often glorious, but defeated against the bigger teams. With that record I'd settle, albeit reluctantly, for a decent run of results even if the performances aren't all that great.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
IdleRich said:
Ah, you're a rugby fan, that explains the lack of insight into football.
Seriously though, last night (what I saw of it) was a terrible game for the neutral but if you had been following it as a fan the last bits would have been absolutely harrowing - I was getting nervous when the penalties started. I think that's a pretty good example of what I mean about following a team making the games more fun.

lol - no, Welsh parents, so taking an interest is unavoidable.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
John Doe said:
What game was that then? Sorry, that moment of sporting immortality must have passed me by cos I've never heard of it, let alone it remaining long in my memory (or those of my friends who follow sport).

Anyway comparing the rugby 'world cup' with football is just silly. In rugby you have a grand total of five nations - england, france, south africa, australia and new zealand - who are going to win it, and the rest just make up the numbers. I think this World Cup is showing just what a truly global game football is. And while I see this 'the game is about glory' line you're spinning, it's not the full story. You say England's defeat against Brazil in 2002 was a shameful capitulation - well, maybe, maybe not. Perhaps they didn't have enough in the tank to compete with the team who went on to win the trophy. There's no shame there. Against Argentina in France '98 we played brilliantly with 10 men, but still went out. Does that 98 defeat live long in the memory? Or give succour in dark times? Eh, well, not that I've noticed. We still lost. And it still grates. But there you go. That's the way it's been with England for about as long as I can remember: medicore but victorious against the smaller nations, often glorious, but defeated against the bigger teams. With that record I'd settle, albeit reluctantly, for a decent run of results even if the performances aren't all that great.

Your friends follow rugby? Not having heard of that game genuinely surprises me, if so. At the time, it was branded one of the greatest games ever, along with NZ-Barbarians in 73, etc.

Sorry, don't buy most of your football theory. That Brazil QF was absolutely passionless after Rivaldo equalised (after Beckham pulled out of that tackle), and everyone insisted on blaming Seaman.

However, as for the defeats against the bigger teams, absolutely. But at least we've given it a go sometimes (Argentina in '86, when John Barnes was magnificent, and Lineker could've equalised; Germany in 1990, when we should've won by all rights....). I can't see how anyone can have watched the France or Brazil games and not have been embarrassed by how meekly England surrendered.
 

Rambler

Awanturnik
baboon2004 said:
Fair point in its way, but if all football were like England-Ecuador or Switzerland-Ukraine, who would care for much longer?

thankfully, sometimes beauty will prevail, as with the Dutch team of the '70s. Winners of nothing, except sporting immortality.

Although to really split hairs, both the Dutch and the Hungarians are remembered because they won enough to reach the finals ... ;)

The trick is that balance between aesthetics and effect; at the moment I'm not happy with one, but while we're still (just) getting the other, I can live with it.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Rambler said:
Although to really split hairs, both the Dutch and the Hungarians are remembered because they won enough to reach the finals ... ;)

Aha! I anticipated that objection.

And I, um, haven't found an answer to it yet.
 
F

foret

Guest
can we keep the dreaded 'other' game out of this thread

fat overgrown public schoolboys sublimating their homoerotic tendencies has no place alongside football ;-)

i'm really hoping for spain to win today, raul probably in the XI ahead of luis garcia and fabregas for senna, which is a fantastic lineup and laudably attack-minded, especially with attacking wing backs

if ghana won today and went out in the qf, and germany went on to win it, who would you remember more?
 

Rambler

Awanturnik
Some food for thought

Just idly doing some sums over my morning tea. Take this as seriously or not as you like, but I think it's interesting.

Taking the goals scored vs goals conceded as the most important (only important ;) ) aspect of a team performance, over four matches played you get the following league table of those teams left in the competition:

Bra - 10-1
Arg - 10-2
Ger - 10-2
Ita - 6-1
Por - 6-1
Eng - 6-2
Fra - 6-2
Ukr - 5-4

(Switzerland's 4-0 puts them level with England and France, and plenty ahead of Ukraine even if you factor in the penalty shoot out; Mexico are level with Ukraine on 5-4, so perhaps both teams can consider themselves unlucky).

Obviously this isn't completely reliable as an indicator of a team's quality. Some goals are worth more than others - the sixth goal against a shattered Serbia and Montenegro side is easier than the first, for example, a nuance that interestingly works against Argentina and would push them below Germany in the table.

In the quarters, then, Brazil-France looks the most clear-cut, and Italy should also have few troubles against Ukraine. The closest games are Argentina-Germany and England-Portugal; don't bet against either Portugal or Germany.

By all means pick this apart as much as you like...
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
OK, will do.
Spain scored 8 and conceded 1.
France scored 3 and conceded 1.
Looks as though Spain should walk that one right?
In general, you can't simply look at results without considering the teams that they were playing against, it's stupid. Germany's thrashing of Ecuador was against a weakened side because they rested their players for the England game.
If they play like they did on Tuesday I think that France will run Brazil pretty close.
 

Rambler

Awanturnik
yeah, I know it's pretty dumb, not meant to be taken terribly seriously. But I don't actually think it's much worse than statements like 'if they play like they did last night', etc - if France play like they did against Switzerland, they'll get hammered, it just depends on an arbitrary point of reference.
 

John Doe

Well-known member
I had a feeling France would do the Spanish - not least because on the day before the game Spain's coach Aragones again refused to apologise for calling Henry a 'black bastard'. I was watching the team as they lined up for the national anthem and couldn't help noticing about half (at least) of France's first XI are black. I thought they'd raise their game. It was v much a case of 'take that you sclerotic racist tw*t'.

I also have a feeling that France will do Brazil ... dunno why. England v France semi anyone? I think we'll beat Portugal, although I'm not entirely sure. I find I can make fairly accurate predictions about most teams except the one I happen to support...
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
My predictions are England to beat Portugal (because losing Deco is a very big blow), France to beat Brazil (France getting better, really looked the part against Spain), Italy to beat Ukraine (simply because Italy are a better side) and Germany to beat Argentina (Germany looking very strong and with the crowd behind them might have slightly more will to win).
 
F

foret

Guest
a portugal side without deco and probably ronaldo, their two best players

and they have one very mediocre player in nuno valente at left back who is just crying out to have aaron lennon attacking on that flank

don't forget that stupid cunt ericksson was going to bring on crouch and wayne bridge before beckham scored against ecuador - the two teams both have big handicaps
 

jenks

thread death
What about Italy to win the whole thing for Pessotto? If there is one side left who are totally united at present it's them.

course I don't want it to happen :p
 

John Doe

Well-known member
IdleRich said:
My predictions are England to beat Portugal (because losing Deco is a very big blow), France to beat Brazil (France getting better, really looked the part against Spain), Italy to beat Ukraine (simply because Italy are a better side) and Germany to beat Argentina (Germany looking very strong and with the crowd behind them might have slightly more will to win).

Yeah, I reckon you're right there.

Foret: you're right. I'd forgotten Wayne Bridge was about to come on in the England game... Christ, if we do anything in the WC it'll be in spite of, and not because of, the kooky Swede and his crazy tactics/substitutions... :(
 

jenks

thread death
The Germans win on pens - what a surprise!! Lehmann proving once again what an asset he is in the shoot out.

Think the tournament is wide open without the Argentinians now - no Messi, (why not?) seemed like an error by a previously astute coach.
 
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