Joanna Newsom --- "Ys"

[DannyL]

I mean this is why I like a lot of modern classical. Because I'm not anti-western music, I'm not anti-white (whatever that is supposed to mean for a brown man like myself.) But when I listen to Ligeti, I hear the humanism, the intellectual culture of Europe, the turbulence of the 20th century. I hear something very broad. I also hear his attempt to escape out of the restrictions of socialist realism and try and create a truly modern music that uses pianos and coral textures percussively, as an attempt to grasp towards an unattainable universal (coltrane in his most free moments also has this.)

I actually had a phase of buying Ligeti records, you just reminded me I need to pull those out. They have the most amazing modernist covers.

 

[thirdform]

Jazz has deep roots in the Western classical tradition via ragtime.

The blues are a co-creation of Irish and English balladry, on the one hand, and slave work songs.

Synthesizer music and sampling and vocoders started as an artsy white person thing, etc etc

This isn't trying to take credit away from black musicians. It's just that the simplistic "black people invented all good music and white people copied them" narrative is as stupid and reductive and simplistic as the narrative of black primitivism/raw-but-untrained creativity that preceded it.

Novelty is born out of hybridity. Not "black genius" born of hardship and secondhand citizenship. Let's not be stupid romantics here and repeat 19th C racial mythologies ad nauseum in the name of progressivism

You are completely right, but there's a glaring whole in your argument. And it's that for a lot of indie practitioners, black music is historic, it's not a living, breathing tradition.

I mentioned Morressey for this precise reason. If I can find the melody maker interview with Frank Owen he did in '88, I can post the choice quote.

“Pop has never been this divided,” wrote Simon Reynolds in his much-lauded, recent piece on the indie scene, referring to the chasm that now exists between indie-pop and black pop. The detestation that your average indie fan feels for black music can be gauged by the countless letters they write to the music press whenever a black act is featured on the front page.
It’s a bit like the late Sixties all over again with a burgeoning Head culture insisting that theirs’ is the “real” radical music, an intelligent and subversive music that provides an alternative to the crude showbiz values of black pop.
Morrissey has further widened this divide with the recent single, Panic – where “Metal Guru” meets the most explicit denunciation yet of black pop. “Hang the DJ” urges Morrissey. So is the music of The Smiths and their ilk racist, as Green claims?
“Reggae, for example, is to me the most racist music in the entire world. It’s an absolute total glorification of black supremacy… There is a line when defence of one’s race becomes an attack on another race and, because of black history and oppression, we realise quite clearly that there has to be a very strong defence. But I think it becomes very extreme sometimes.”
”But, ultimately, I don’t have very cast iron opinions on black music other than black modern music which I detest. I detest Stevie Wonder. I think Diana Ross is awful. I hate all those records in the Top 40 – Janet Jackson, Whitney Houston. I think they’re vile in the extreme. In essence this music doesn’t say anything whatsoever.”
But it does, it does. What it says can’t necessarily be verbalised easily. It doesn’t seek to change the world like rock music by speaking grand truths about politics, sex and the human condition. It works at a much more subtle level – at the level of the body and the shared abandon of the dancefloor. It won’t change the world, but it’s been said it may well change the way you walk through the world.
“I don’t think there’s any time anymore to be subtle about anything, you have to get straight to the point. Obviously to get on Top Of The Pops these days, one has to be, by law, black. I think something political has occurred among Michael Hurl and his friends and there has been a hefty pushing of all these black artists and all this discofied nonsense into the Top 40. I think, as a result, that very aware younger groups that speak for now are being gagged.”
You seem to be saying that you believe that there is some sort of black pop conspiracy being organised to keep white indie groups down.
“Yes, I really do.”
Morrissey goes on:
“The charts have been constructed quite clearly as an absolute form of escapism rather than anything anyone can gain any knowledge by. I find that very disheartening because it wasn’t always that way. Isn’t it curious that practically none of these records reflect life as we live it? Isn’t it curious that 93 and a half percent of these records relect life as it isn’t lived? That foxes me!”
“If you compare the exposure that records by the likes of Janet Jackson and the stream of other anonymous Jacksons get to the level of daily airplay that The Smiths receive – The Smiths have had at least 10 consecutive chart hits and we still can’t get on Radio 1′s A list. Is that not a conspiracy? The last LP ended up at number two and we were still told by radio that nobody wanted to listen to The Smiths in the daytime. Is that not a conspiracy? I do get the scent of a conspiracy.”
“And, anyway, the entire syndrome has one tune and surely that’s enough to condemn the entire thing.”
People say that about The Smiths. And it seems to me that you’re foregrounding something that isn’t necessarily relevant to a lot of black music, especially hip-hop. It’s like me saying that I don’t like The Smiths because they don’t use a beatbox.
”The lack of melody is not the only reason that I find it entirely unlistenable. The lyrical content is merely lists.”
Do you dislike the macho masculinity of many of the records?
”No. I don’t find it very masculine.”
Well, a lot of it is about…
”What? Chicks?” he sniggers.
No. One upmanship. Having the best, the biggest.
”Mmmmm. It’s just not the world I live in and, similarly, I’m sure they wouldn’t care that much for The Smiths.
I don’t want to feel in the dock because there are some things I dislike. Having said that, my favourite record of all time is “Third Finger, Left Hand” by Martha and the Vandellas which can lift me from the most doom-laden depression.”
Why is it that people like yourself can eulogise Sixties black pop and yet be so antagonistic towards present-day black pop? Nostalgia?
”No. It was made in the Sixties but I don’t listen to the record now and say, ‘Well, I must remember this is a Sixties record and it’s 1986 now so let’s put it all into perspective.’ It has as much value now as ever. We shouldn’t really talk in terms of decades.”
It seems to me that nostalgia is something that afflicts the whole indie scene. They can’t face up to the fact that pop music is no longer created; it’s assembled, quoted and collated. That’s why so many indie bands are caught in a timewarp with ‘real’ musicians playing ‘real’ music on ‘real’ instruments. Isn’t that the reason for The Smiths’ much-vaunted Luddite tendencies? Can’t hi-tech have a liberating aspect, enabling non-musicians to construct music? And isn’t this well in tune with the punk ethic that the indie scene is supposed to draw its inspiration from?
”I hate the idea of having to learn to play the instruments, too. But it makes it so easy. It means that anyone with no arms, no legs nor a head can suddenly make a superb LP which will obviously go platinum. I can’t help it. I love Wigan, I love George Formby, I love bicycles. I love Wigan’s Ovation.”
”Hi-tech can’t be liberating. It’ll kill us all. You’ll be strangulated by the cords of your compact disc.”
Suddenly, Morrissey breaks off and stares at me as I munch my way through the giant bowl of crisps on his hotel room table. “Why are you eating all those stale crisps?” he asks. “You’ll regret it in the morning.”
Suddenly, there’s a knock at the door. “Shall we see who it is?” I suggest. “No. It’s probably a cockroach,” he replies. Such is the Morrissey interview experience.

 

[mvuent]

i do think Y's is special... "Emily" and "Only Skin" in particular. was trying to figure out why i find it more appealing than her later work, which a lot of fans seem to think gets even better, and i think it's because Y's, for all its virtuosity and forethought, has a kind of a turmoil, a kind of pouring out, overextending oneself quality. its not ALL elaborate construction nor is it just a raw/confessional sort of thing, its sort of precariously in between the two in a way that gives it an epic scope. 20 minutes of progressive polyrhythms and arcane lyrics only to emotionally blurt "i love you truly or i love no one"--saying something your older, more poised, guileful self would have edited out.

 

[mvuent]

having said that criticizing dissensus for not appreciating the indie canon feels a bit like going to Bentonia in 1928 and criticizing them for not being open minded enough to like Paul Whiteman. obviously a silly analogy but its like, you already have everywhere else!

 

[thirdform]

If indie pop evolved more in this direction I might like it much more. Pure serotonin firing rackety digital soul.

 

[thirdform]

goodnight.

 

[sus]

i do think Y's is special... "Emily" and "Only Skin" in particular. was trying to figure out why i find it more appealing than her later work, which a lot of fans seem to think gets even better, and i think it's because Y's, for all its virtuosity and forethought, has a kind of a turmoil, a kind of pouring out, overextending oneself quality. its not ALL elaborate construction nor is it just a raw/confessional sort of thing, its sort of precariously in between the two in a way that gives it an epic scope. 20 minutes of progressive polyrhythms and arcane lyrics only to emotionally blurt "i love you truly or i love no one"--saying something your older, more poised, guileful self would have edited out.

Yes! Yes! Exactly

 

[sus]

having said that criticizing dissensus for not appreciating the indie canon feels a bit like going to Bentonia in 1928 and criticizing them for not being open minded enough to like Paul Whiteman. obviously a silly analogy but its like, you already have everywhere else!

My problem is not Dissensus failing to appreciate the indie canon. My problem is that I can't post a single opinion in favor of non-approved music, even on 15-year-old threads, without immediately getting piled on with verbal insults, racialization

 

[sus]

The truth is I'm not particularly interested in engaging with current members about indie, their opinions have been made abundantly clear.

But these threads are twenty year old living dialogues that may still be around twenty years ago, and now for every couple posts of meaningful discussion, there are endless pages of stupid petty insults

I'm not "fishing for abuse" I'm using the forum.

 

[thirdform]

The truth is I'm not particularly interested in engaging with current members about indie, their opinions have been made abundantly clear.

But these threads are twenty year old living dialogues that may still be around twenty years ago, and now for every couple posts of meaningful discussion, there are endless pages of stupid petty insults

I'm not "fishing for abuse" I'm using the forum.

Knowing which threads to resurrect and which ones not to is a fine art. There is a lot of shame about that era of the internet.

 

[thirdform]

we also aren't the same people who posted on dissensus 15 years ago and a lot of those people you might want to engage in dialogue with are now our equivalent of the brooklyn culture mafia. We are the faithful who stuck with/joined the project when everyone else left it for bigger and better things, whilst Luke's shitposting might get a bit excessive sometimes it is what it is. That era of dissensus is long gone. Those dialogues are dead to us. I won't speak too much ill about the dead here, but I personally didn't even rate the body of work of one of the main founders of this forum.

 

[shakahislop]

@zhao what do you think boss

 

[shakahislop]

i'm going to listen to ys on the plane tomorrow. i hated it ten years ago but it's worth another crack.

 

[sus]

we also aren't the same people who posted on dissensus 15 years ago and a lot of those people you might want to engage in dialogue with are now our equivalent of the brooklyn culture mafia. We are the faithful who stuck with/joined the project when everyone else left it for bigger and better things, whilst Luke's shitposting might get a bit excessive sometimes it is what it is. That era of dissensus is long gone. Those dialogues are dead to us. I won't speak too much ill about the dead here, but I personally didn't even rate the body of work of one of the main founders of this forum.

OK. I will no longer post about indie, and will abide and respect board culture.

 

[sus]

I'm very serious. I won't meddle anymore. It's not my place. The board is your space, and I'm a guest.

 

[line b]

oh my god Im listening to Y's right now no need to freak out

 

[line b]

the first word being 'meadowlark' sung in that accent is a little, er, triggering, but its grown to be very lush. feel like Im on a cloud with the muses

 

[sus]

So lush

 

[sus]

Where are you at now? Only Skin?

Slash thinking about how all of the ah adversarial chit-chat earlier was worth Mvuent's great comment about her spilling out, the lapses of control in the technique, etc

 

[sus]

Monkey & Bear kinda sounds like if Bjork went pastoral