hadouken / problem of appropriation / hot topic MERGED

[outraygeous]

when i first discovered your music i was shocked and thought that some hoxtonites were doing grime and being quite good at it.

then it came to light that you are an acomplished grime producer who actually shook up the whole grime scene and got something done with it.

people can dislike your music but no one can knock your hustle

and if the grime scene feel like they are being robbed or hard done by, then maybe they should do something about instead of blaming someone else

 

[Logan Sama]

Lot of really overly precious responses to this band. I'm pretty staggered, I thought this kind of closed-minded attitude was in the past. More fool me!

You can't lock something up and only allow people who pass the 'respect' test to steal from it. The cats out of the bag as soon as someone picks up a mic, in Grime's case, and anyone can do whatever the fuck like with that influence. If you don't like it, tough fucking shit! I couldn't care less if Louis Walsh made Westlife do a grime single. Is that going to damage the Grime scene? Of course not, at least not if the artists have confidence in what they do.

Of course, it's perfectly fair to hate the music. I think Nu Rave is a load of contrived, amateurish shite, but I couldn't care less about it. Just get over it.

Don't forget, a lot of the original Detroit producers were horrified at hardcore techno.




So what?

I care, ergo I posted about it.

You don't care yet went to the same effort?

 

[mistersloane]

I really, really rate you for replying to the discussion, Hadouken, thanks for taking the time, I for one appreciated what you had to say, I think that was pretty brave.

 

[MATT MAson]

I really, really rate you for replying to the discussion, Hadouken, thanks for taking the time, I for one appreciated what you had to say, I think that was pretty brave.

ditto.

 

[mms]

urse not, at least not if the artists have confidence in what they do.

Of course, it's perfectly fair to hate the music. I think Nu Rave is a load of contrived, amateurish shite, but I couldn't care less about it. Just get over it.

the contrived attempts of amateurs make the world go round...

 

[mms]

I think they should have grime producers remix their stuff - if nothing else it would be a direct way of putting money in the originators' pockets.

not just that, but a chance to highlight some talent that has come through grime that maybe (and this is guessing or assuming) that alot of their fans might not have got into.
dunno if hadouken have got any actual money yet but they have attention.

 

[Logan Sama]

Can these topics get merged?

 

[Logan Sama]

Having one release which was a low rent knock-off of Creeper does not give you a pass to run off into the indie scene with your new toys and not do any work to promote where you stole your ideas from.

When I start seeing remixes from Rapid and JME, when I start seeing interviews and articles in magazines which tip a hat to the people who pioneered these sounds that are giving you a career, then I shall feel someway satiated that whilst being successful through clever marketing and appropriation of an exciting sound you aren't just pillaging.

 

[john eden]

Can these topics get merged?

yes

 

[Don Rosco]

I care, ergo I posted about it.

You don't care yet went to the same effort?

I care that people are getting so flustered about it. There's better ways to expend that energy, and there's more important things to care about.

the contrived attempts of amateurs make the world go round...

Very true, but it doesn't make everything contrived and amateurish good. And I still don't like 'Nu Rave'. As for Hadouken, having actually listened to their music now, they're not too bad. Not something I would ever choose to listen to, but better than some watery guitar shite. And they get props for being named after a SFII sound effect.

 

[outraygeous]

Having one release which was a low rent knock-off of Creeper does not give you a pass to run off into the indie scene with your new toys and not do any work to promote where you stole your ideas from.

When I start seeing remixes from Rapid and JME, when I start seeing interviews and articles in magazines which tip a hat to the people who pioneered these sounds that are giving you a career, then I shall feel someway satiated that whilst being successful through clever marketing and appropriation of an exciting sound you aren't just pillaging.

no one ever promotes the scene where they steal their ideas from. As soon as you make something and put it out, expect people to copy and sample your work. its how things evolve.

wiley nicked the riff from dangerous for terrible, i didnt hear him thanking garage, in fact quite the opposite.
spooky used an old dancehall track and made joyride, no thanks there
dizzee rascal and youngster used distored 808s, no thanks to happy hardcore or gabba there

grime is big enough to do its own promotion

 

[Logan Sama]

That entire post was taking a very lose correlation to the furthest reaches of rationality and beyond.

Wiley took the riff from Terrible from Dangerous? No he didn't, but even then those early Grime artists still gave thanks and recognition to Garage music for it's influences.

Spooky bootlegged joyride and didn't give credit? Actually, yes he did. He always said it was a refix.

And using fucking 808 sounds? are you serious?

How can you possibly compare any of those to this example with a straight face is beyond my comprehension.

And again, "expect people to sample and copy your work" doesn't exclude me from being allowed to be pissed about it.

 

[nomos]

very good of hadouken to jump in the snake pit and respond.

Grime production is in my blood. If something like That Boy That Girl, listens as an ironic pastiche of Grime, then this is disheartening to me, because if anything it was intended to be a nod, to pay homage to the genre that I am massive fan of.

I'm not a fan of the music, but you've got to love this guy's attitude - i.e. this is not some snotty, arrogant, exploitational bullshit. It's fan boys being influenced. There's a difference between that and cultural appropriation.

yeah nail on the head, paul. i take back my suppositions about their motives (though again, not the broader commentary on "indie" culture). they're clearly fans, it doesn't seem cynical and i wouldn't want to discourage this sort of borrowing between scenes. we'd be nowhere without it.

also though, as i've argued, and ripley points out too, reception is the other half of this equation and, while it's largely beyond their control, artists do a have a role to play in managing how they're made to operate in popular culture. so we'll see how that plays out. i'd love to see an act come along that actually inspires some critical reflection within "indie" rather than reinforcing its borders and cultural preconceptions. the blog post says that the album should give a more complete picture of the band.

re: jme - is this really an issue? does jme care? british music from early rock to 2tone to jungle to grime has hinged on copping other people's flows.

 

[nomos]

I think they should have grime producers remix their stuff - if nothing else it would be a direct way of putting money in the originators' pockets.

that's what i meant to say too, they're in a position to approach people like jme, to try things out together, experiment and probably raise the profile of each of them.

 

[Tactics]

So what?

didn't you see me shrug lol? its a good point and true but boy...what else can be said and done about it right here and now on a net forum...hence I shrug...I feel another one coming on *shrugs*

ahhh that's feels better lol

re: jme - is this really an issue? does jme care? british music from early rock to 2tone to jungle to grime has hinged on copping other people's flows.

I think it is...actually it damn well is for me! you just don't do that where I'm from. the least this guy could do is when they ineveitably go on to zane lowe's/jo whiley/xfm show to do a live session is big up JME/BBK, give out his/their myspace address and say something like 'this guy totally inspired me on this track'. if man like chris martin go on tv and say 'we totally tried to rip of kate bush' for this, the guy can at least do this...or remix work...but I prefer the first option as a remix would make it seem like that kind of flow theft is cool

I am a bit amazed (but not surprised) at how the tide turned though...it just took the guy to make a post and already he's got ppl in his pocket and there fans now (not out to anyone in particular)?!?!? wow

 

[nomos]

no i see what you're saying though about giving dues. i agree and i think that's essential to this project of theirs if it's going to be more than just imitation without engagement. but people have gotten very righteous about the sanctity of a given mc's flow as if he conjured it from thin air without himself being influenced in any way. it's just tedious the way people try to erect these one-way membranes around things (like language) that are so inherently mutational and promiscuous.

 

[sodiumnightlife]

I don't think anyone is now saying they like hadouken and they think they're marvellous...but I think people do respect the guy's level headedness, and some people feel more secure that they aren't ripping off grime, they're genuinely inspired by it. Course then you have the dissenters but then this is dissensus haha.

 

[MATT MAson]

I am a bit amazed (but not surprised) at how the tide turned though...it just took the guy to make a post and already he's got ppl in his pocket and there fans now (not out to anyone in particular)?!?!? wow

I don't think the tide really turned, people on Dissensus were pretty polarized about this before the post and remain so.

 

[Sick Boy]

They are still getting robbed if they come through Toronto.

One blog about how grime artists need to start bands to become successful isn't changing that.

 

[shudder]

One blog about how grime artists need to start bands to become successful isn't changing that.

true, that was certainly the lamest part of the post. The idea that somehow DJ- and DJ+MCs-based music is less fresh than live performance, and that *that* is the main reason for grime not selling... obviously the Dissensus massive aren't going to buy that.