hadouken / problem of appropriation / hot topic MERGED

[Slothrop]

true, that was certainly the lamest part of the post. The idea that somehow DJ- and DJ+MCs-based music is less fresh than live performance, and that *that* is the main reason for grime not selling... obviously the Dissensus massive aren't going to buy that.

Well, I think he's sort of tangentially hitting the point which is that a lot of the mainstream media still haven't got their heads around how to deal with club based music - minimal isn't exactly setting the broadsheets on fire either. The music wouldn't (neccessarily) be better with a live band who do conventional gigs but it would be more likely to get noticed by the mainstream press simply because it fits the structure that they know how to deal with. This has happened for about as long as we've had dance music - the shit thing is that the press still haven't figured it out and it's hard to see how they're going to.

 

[nomos]

This has happened for about as long as we've had dance music - the shit thing is that the press still haven't figured it out and it's hard to see how they're going to.

Is it just me or is this getting worse? When I talk to students/younger 20-somethings about music I feel like being into electronic/DJ-based stuff marks me as old and a little behind the times - pop's "lost generation" or something.

Obviously, I blame "indie"

 

[shudder]

Is it just me or is this getting worse? When I talk to students/younger 20-somethings about music I feel like being into electronic/DJ-based stuff marks me as old and a little behind the times - pop's "lost generation" or something.

Obviously, I blame "indie"

I am one of those younger-20-somethings, and I can tell you that even among music fans, few kids my age are willing to take DJ-based music as seriously as they do band-based music. Whether this has ever been any different, I don't know. Seems to me that the only "electronic" stuff that got much notice was always the most rockist anyway...

 

[mms]

One blog about how grime artists need to start bands to become successful isn't changing that.

yes quite.
pet peeve for me is the false idea in recent times that bands are essential and new whilst other ways of making music and performing are wrong or unpopular.

don't rob them though please.

 

[bun-u]

I think the NME asking Hadouken for their overview of grime/dubstep scenes, is revealing for all this....they need 'one of their own' telling them about the scenes, not JME or Wiley or Logan...someone who's basically looks and sounds like an indie kid and reassures other indie kids that this is a safe place to go.

Also hypothetically if, say two years ago there were loads of grime appropriators - a pop/grime act, an indie/grime act, a house/grime act....do you think Kano and RD would've made the albums they did? Don't the appropriators mark out the 'cross-over' territory, leaving the core acts to get on with the business of unleashing their own sound?

 

[elgato]

re: the performance issue

as a early(ish) twentysomething, ive got to say that i think a lot of my peers dont really see bands as more valid or progressive ways of performing music, they just find it more immediate, more exciting. i guess on the most part because they dont have such a high attention span for the music itself, alone, and prefer engaging with the whole live experience of a gig - the buzz, the character, the swagger and ego etc. which imo is no bad thing, just taste i guess, provided they dont try to assert any kind of superiority. as for me, its just a matter of taste

but i think its a lot to do with character and vibe rather than the actual nature of the performance setup - people love showmen/women - look at The Gossip - aside from having a great lead single, their frontwoman gets a ridiculous amount of press, because she is a massive character

this of course is not lacking in grime - there are plenty of big characters, so i dont think hadouken's post carries any weight in that regard

but ive got a lot of time for that post, it showed a dignity and quality that its hard to turn your nose up at. but please, please, please start shout from the rooftops about JME - its just not acceptable (to me) to rinse his flow so much without crediting it

 

[Paul Hotflush]

look at The Gossip - aside from having a great lead single, their frontwoman gets a ridiculous amount of press, because she is a massive character

LOL

In all seriousness, Hadouken should be banned.

 

[petergunn]

true, that was certainly the lamest part of the post. The idea that somehow DJ- and DJ+MCs-based music is less fresh than live performance, and that *that* is the main reason for grime not selling... obviously the Dissensus massive aren't going to buy that.

it's funny how the grass is always greener on the other side...

go to rock based forums and everyone in bands is complaining that no one goes to see bands anymore, that people go to DJ nights instead, that clubs don't book as much live music b/c it's easier to just book a DJ, etc...

 

[swears]

Grime is (was?) futuristic, exotic, energetic, driven, mechanised and sped up to the point of sounding almost inhuman. Why dilute it with humdrum, lumpen Carling Lager flavoured indie? How is this a positive development?

 

[tatarsky]

Clearly cross-pollination between genres is vital for music’s evolution, so it’s not just ludicrous, but outright dangerous, to get too parochial.

It’s clear that Hadouken!’s use of grime is not ironic. Blaming them for any success they have off the back of a cynical mocking (racist?) appropriation by the core indie demographic of the kind nomos refers to is unfair, provided they make every attempt to big up those they’re referencing as much as possible.

So, I’ve got no problem with the idea of Hadouken! But (going on what I’ve head so far):

- Their beats are boring rhythmically
- The synths are tragically unimaginative (presets?)
- It’s poorly engineered
- The ‘indie’ aspect sits squarely within the post-strokes/white stripes mo(u)ld, which immediately makes me want to burn guitars. If they just took a broader song-based approach, potentially, I could be loving it.

Crucially, cross-pollination should be about re-interpreting techniques and signifiers by juxtaposing in ways that hasn’t been looked at before. The appropriation of dub and disco by post-punk acts (PiL and Talking Heads, say) genuinely re-interpreted the techniques employed, of punk itself, but also dub and disco, took them to new territories and made them sound different. But Hadouken! do nothing to explore grime musically - there’s no chance of any feedback to grime, because there’s nothing other than a trite slapping on of the most orthodox grime beats. It may be a step forward for indie, but its out and out theft of grime’s innovations, and offers nothing in return (musically that is - the scene may benefit from sales).

Conclusion: The politics of Hadouken aren’t really the issue. The fact that they’re shit is.

 

[Sick Boy]

Clearly cross-pollination between genres is vital for music’s evolution, so it’s not just ludicrous, but outright dangerous, to get too parochial.

It’s clear that Hadouken!’s use of grime is not ironic. Blaming them for any success they have off the back of a cynical mocking (racist?) appropriation by the core indie demographic of the kind nomos refers to is unfair, provided they make every attempt to big up those they’re referencing as much as possible.

So, I’ve got no problem with the idea of Hadouken! But (going on what I’ve head so far):

- Their beats are boring rhythmically
- The synths are tragically unimaginative (presets?)
- It’s poorly engineered
- The ‘indie’ aspect sits squarely within the post-strokes/white stripes mo(u)ld, which immediately makes me want to burn guitars. If they just took a broader song-based approach, potentially, I could be loving it.

Crucially, cross-pollination should be about re-interpreting techniques and signifiers by juxtaposing in ways that hasn’t been looked at before. The appropriation of dub and disco by post-punk acts (PiL and Talking Heads, say) genuinely re-interpreted the techniques employed, of punk itself, but also dub and disco, took them to new territories and made them sound different. But Hadouken! do nothing to explore grime musically - there’s no chance of any feedback to grime, because there’s nothing other than a trite slapping on of the most orthodox grime beats. It may be a step forward for indie, but its out and out theft of grime’s innovations, and offers nothing in return (musically that is - the scene may benefit from sales).

Conclusion: The politics of Hadouken aren’t really the issue. The fact that they’re shit is.

The way I'm looking at it, the fact that they are shit definetely comes first, because they are shit. But because they are shit at what they are doing gives this topic the "political" edge.

 

[UFO over easy]

it's hardly been factually established that Hadouken are shit. I quite like them, and lots of other people on here too. those kind of comments are holding this discussion back from actually being quite informative, especially considering dr. venom actually had the guts to stand up for them and construct a thoughtful reply to what decent points were raised, despite their having been buried under what were really some quite nasty slurs.

 

[swears]

...The appropriation of dub and disco by post-punk acts (PiL and Talking Heads, say) genuinely re-interpreted the techniques employed, of punk itself, but also dub and disco, took them to new territories and made them sound different...

This is a crucial distinction. Are you going to take lazy signifiers from a genre and slap them over your own mediocre music as some sort of gimmick, or are you going to take some inherent, essential element of that sound (say disco's groove, dub's spaciousness, techno's pulse, or in the case of grime maybe it's "clunkiness") and expand on it? Otherwise, you're doing little more than paying lip service a few hip sound effects.

 

[gek-opel]

This is a crucial distinction. Are you going to take lazy signifiers from a genre and slap them over your own mediocre music as some sort of gimmick, or are you going to take some inherent, essential element of that sound (say disco's groove, dub's spaciousness, techno's pulse, or in the case of grime maybe it's "clunkiness") and expand on it? Otherwise, you're doing little more than paying lip service a few hip sound effects.

Its not even that its necessarily a gimmick, per se... merely that indie-rock as a vessel for reinterpretation is ENTIRELY unsuited to such a purpose (other than, of course as a system of rendering things immediately more marketable to certain key demographics...)

 

[tatarsky]

Hadouken - Ostensibly Grime

it's hardly been factually established that Hadouken are shit. I quite like them, and lots of other people on here too. those kind of comments are holding this discussion back from actually being quite informative, especially considering dr. venom actually had the guts to stand up for them and construct a thoughtful reply to what decent points were raised, despite their having been buried under what were really some quite nasty slurs.

Forgive me, I really must try hard to come up with facts to establish whether an act is good or not. Despite years of trying on message boards and conversation, somehow this has proved elusive.

Fair play to venom for having the courtesy to grace dissensus with a defence of his position, which has effectively rebutted some of the earlier criticisms on cynical ironic theft for a USP in the indie market. Undoubtedly, Hadouken! would be more offensive if it weren't for venom's heritage and their fanboy status, but these facts serve to kill off the political attacks, as I've said. I couldn't really give a shit about whether or not they were being given a massive marketing push, or whether this is driven by them or some major. Either way, it's got nothing to do with their music. It's not good that the majors don't know how to market grime obviously, but its not Hadouken's fault. What is their fault is the fact that they are shit. If they were any good and were given a big marketing push, I'd be ok with that.

Also, since Hadouken only rip off certain core grime sounds, I'm unconvinced of their ability to bridge the gap from indiedom to grime beyond anything superficial. If they were to work much harder at re-interpreting grime signifiers (perhaps its clunkiness, as swears says), that genuinely would help bridge the gap, to work almost as an explanation of grime to indie kids. To me, it doesn't even sound particularly like grime - its got nothing in it that comes anywhere close to what grime is actually all about (its awkward mechanised rhythmical freakishness particularly). As gek says, it might be impossible to assimilate such freakishness into the indie template.

 

[UFO over easy]

Forgive me, I really must try hard to come up with facts to establish whether an act is good or not. Despite years of trying on message boards and conversation, somehow this has proved elusive.

With your obviously solid grasp of irony, you'd do well in the indie scene.

Also, since Hadouken only rip off certain core grime sounds, I'm unconvinced of their ability to bridge the gap from indiedom to grime beyond anything superficial. If they were to work much harder at re-interpreting grime signifiers (perhaps its clunkiness, as swears says), that genuinely would help bridge the gap, to work almost as an explanation of grime to indie kids. To me, it doesn't even sound particularly like grime - its got nothing in it that comes anywhere close to what grime is actually all about (its awkward mechanised rhythmical freakishness particularly). As gek says, it might be impossible to assimilate such freakishness into the indie template.

This would all be fair enough were it not for your earlier statement of "the fact that they're shit", and your basing that on the multiple assumptions as to what you think Hadouken are trying to achieve with their music. The mere idea that, shock horror, they might just want to make people dance is obviously completely absurd, as the fact that they appear to sit uncomfortably within their genre means you need to assimilate them into your complex system of feedback loops.. otherwise, appallingly, there might not be much to discuss.

The only relavent feedback loops here between the grime and indie scenes stems from these ten page discussions as to their motives and musical heritage...

 

[straight]

this is one of those typically disensus threads. when it comes down to itpeople are hating on them because of their lack of 'authenticity' because theyre not from some council hell hole in south london and because they dress brashly. i was geared up to hate them like most of this new rave balls but after a few listens i quite like them, i really think theyve nailed the a good sound. i dont know what grime records youve been listyenin to but cheap preset sounds are all part of the appeal; wiley may be using a virus put his beats still sound like he got them down poundstetcher (in a good way) when i was out last week i heard their remix of atlantis to interzone and i loved it, a really fresh take on a turgid song. this is music for 18 year olds having the time of their life, you need to remember that. i was 18 in 2000 when electroclash was first blowing up and it was amazing. id spent my teenage years on detroit techno and early gigolo and booty 12s with skinhead techno geeks and i did a fair amount hating on the bandwagon jumpers but when it comes down to its exposing youngsters to music they otherwise wouldnt have a clue about and goes a long way toward expanding their horizons. it exposed me to no wave, tuxedo moon, the birthday party, the normal, throbbing gristle.. etc that i otherwise would have been ignorant about

 

[gumdrops]

my problem with hadouken is that im not sure theyre really doing anything special except doing grime from an indie kid POV. when i first heard of them i thought it was an indie band taking grime and adapting it to suit indie (like hot chip or someone), but hadouken are just like grime, MCing and all, but replayed by a band.

 

[shudder]

hmmm, well it looks like it's not just dissensoids who are worried about hipster/ironic appropriation of other (and frankly blacker) music cultures. Check out this thread on a Toronto indie forum where the first poster tries to make a similar point (although loses track halfway through), and then gets jumped on by the rest of the board:

http://www.stillepost.ca/boards/index.php?topic=75022.0

 

[straight]

so is it alright for countless 2nd rate grime records to appropriate other peoples lingo, the overused badman 'BLAT!!!BLAT!!!SHOWERFACE!!!' crap and the fruityloops preset beats but whenever someone from outside takes the formula and clearly has an intricate understanding of the music and applies that to their everyday life it isnt? isnt that why UK hiphop was discounted for years? is this any more of a sacrilige than US indie noodle armed hiphop like anticon?