vimothy
yurp
Very true
Live Earth
- Thread starter mos dan
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Very true
rockypoppy2
wtf?
no, theres more to the riots than that - its growing resentment on the part of 1st 2nd and 3rd gen immigrants living in france, subject to the double peine rule, subject to harrassment, intimidation, and abuse from the police because they are not represented, do not have a say. Sarkozy was complicit in allowing this behaviour to go unchallenged and this is why he is resented as a right wing politician. Just today 4 people were killed in Paris by gendarmes, the details are unclear. I was at a film screening last night where speakers from the MIB (ministre de l'immigration et banlieues - a political group set up by the immigrants) was showing films. Several times french police have been let off the hook for Assassinating people (why? because they're immigrants). The riots have got a much more political and current element to them that you simply dismiss.
What is anti-democratic is that the immigrants in the banlieue - who have been granted temporary residency - in some cases when they were even BORN in France, are not given a say, and are threatened with deportation under double peine.
mistersloane
heavy heavy monster sound
right on rockypoppy
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
OK, I'm well aware of the problems immigrant communities face in France, and I'm aware Sarkozy is probably not going to directly do a huge amount to improve things. (Although if he can reinvigorate the economy and create jobs, this will presumably benefit France's legions of unemployed.)
My point was the he was democratically elected by winning the greatest number of votes - there was a good turnout and I didn't hear of any complaints of corruption or anything - so he has every right to be leader of the country. If people want to protest against him, that's one thing, but to protest against his being elected is simply anti-democratic.
My point was the he was democratically elected by winning the greatest number of votes - there was a good turnout and I didn't hear of any complaints of corruption or anything - so he has every right to be leader of the country. If people want to protest against him, that's one thing, but to protest against his being elected is simply anti-democratic.
vimothy
yurp
There's more still. France is pretty messed up at present, and it's massive public sector industry prokvides jobs for life for one lucky section of French society, and nothig for anyone else. So the idea was to remove certain regulations, which would make it easier for employers to fire staff, thus making it easier to replace unproductive individuals with more people who actually want or need to work. This would have created movement in thte labour market, and because it is undeniably the young and immigrant populations who are outside the bell jar of French prosperity and employment (such as it is), it is the young and immigrant populations who would stand to benefit most. However, as the old saying goes "you can take a horse to water..." The French being French rioted. They want their poverty, goddamnit, and there's no way Sarko's going to take it from them without a fight!
And then of course there's the gender issue: Sarko might be unpopular with angry and violent young men in the banlieues, but I tihnk you'll find that he's far more popular with women.
That's not anti-democratic. Crime is anti-democratic, and if you are ready to live in France, you should be prepared to abide by the laws necessary to keep it functioning, otherwise you're going to fuck it up for everybody, including your fellow immigrants.
rockypoppy2
wtf?
it might not be anti-democratic, but its downright unjust. France has the nerve to complain about its immigrants when it was they who spilt their own blood when they were forced to defend "the motherland" during 2 world wars. French society is racist against these people now seeking asylum in France and a great deal of the social machine is geared against them. When the society is as unfair as that its no wonder people will riot, regardless of the consequences.
A lot of the times during peaceful protests they will come under provocation by the police. Outright provocation. I'm sorry, but the french need to haul their police in order. Whats happening now, and over the last few years reminds me distinctly of the Brixton riots of the 80's. Same sort of thing, Operation Swamp, stop every black youth, beat them up, question them, haul them in - leave them languishing without charge for ages, occasionally murder one or two... the consequence???? some of the worst rioting London's ever seen. And the police arent even motivated by "crime figures". Its a myth that they cant police the banlieue properly and justly, its an excuse for racism.
some links about the mib. http://eu.d-a-s-h.org/mib http://mibmib.free.fr/
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
I have to say, Vim, there must be something the French government (and perhaps also the majority population) is doing or failing to do to cause their immigrants to be so much worse off than, well, any other European country I can think of. Certainly the UK - as rockypoppy2 says, the stuff that's gone on in France recently is like the riots that happened in Brixton a generation ago (and, thankfully, haven't happened since, on anything like the same scale).
vimothy
yurp
What's unjust, trying to quell riots? I agree that French society seems generally more racist than English, and that it manages to exclude whole sections by virtue of its restrictive labour laws and attachment to outdated modes of economic planning. However, rioting is just fucking stupid and is inherently undemocratic and illiberal. Why burn your own community? What about the people who are dedicated to finding positive solutions despite all this (I'd even include Sarko in that), why aren't they rioting?
So why did they riot, was it as coherent as you're making it sound? I don't think it was.
Also, what of the radical Islamist movements popular in the banlieues? What of the horrendous treatment of women there?
Yeah right "all police are racist", "all muslims are terrorists", etc....
There are massive social problems, but the government can only do so much. Obviously it should do more (starting with liberalisation of employment laws), but the communities in the banlieues have responsibilities as well, to themselves if no one else.
vimothy
yurp
Yeah, and that's what I alluded to before. The french economy is in a terrible state because they have this huge private sector workforce that is guaranteed jobs for life and all the lunch breaks it wants. Basically, if you're on the inside (probably about half the country) you're doing fine. Pity the poor immigrant though.
Blame Mitterand and people who call for government intervnetion in the economy. It could have been (should have been!) so very different...
wiki
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
I don't think you can disregard the importance of institutions like the police, though. And it doesn't have to be 'all' police who are racist to cause trouble for black and Middle Eastern people (especially young men): a small hard core of real racists can cause a huge amount of resentment. France's point-blank refusal to allow racial and religious profiling doesn't help either, I think.
Edit: I would say it's probably a combination of an over-regulated and inflexible labour market, as you say, with genuinely racist attitudes among some politicians and police, and (according to a recent survey) no small percentage of the white public. Unemployment and poverty due to the first reason will naturally fuel benefits dependency and crime, which will exacerbate existing prejudices against immigrants, making people even less likely to employ them, and so on and so on.
Edit: I would say it's probably a combination of an over-regulated and inflexible labour market, as you say, with genuinely racist attitudes among some politicians and police, and (according to a recent survey) no small percentage of the white public. Unemployment and poverty due to the first reason will naturally fuel benefits dependency and crime, which will exacerbate existing prejudices against immigrants, making people even less likely to employ them, and so on and so on.
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vimothy
yurp
Maybe, but the heart of the problems are economic and are entirely the fault of successive French governments over the last quarter century. Hopefully Sarkozy will implement some much needed reforms and get France back on its feet.
It's true that a small core of racist police can or could cause a lot of problems in the banlieues, but then so do people gang raping young women and setting them on fire... Change has to also come from within the immigrant communities.
rockypoppy2
wtf?
agreed rioting isnt a great form of expression, and it does not help anyone in the long run. but im just trying to say that the rioters arent all doing it out of some anarchic "lets just fuck things up for the hell of it" way, they are being pushed, and tested further and further by a repressive organ of the state. It would not be unfair to say that the riots could be seen as state-instigated. No one riots in their own back yard simply for the hell of it. Desperate people etc...
i think the british police learnt a lot from the brixton riots with regards to racism. it still persisted until the stephen lawrence thing came to light, but undeniably their overt racism was outed in the face of the riots.
also lets not forget the solidarity that can come out of being repressed. These people feel vulnerable and look to each other for support, creating strong communities born out of fear and mistrust. Its not an ideal situation.
i think the british police learnt a lot from the brixton riots with regards to racism. it still persisted until the stephen lawrence thing came to light, but undeniably their overt racism was outed in the face of the riots.
also lets not forget the solidarity that can come out of being repressed. These people feel vulnerable and look to each other for support, creating strong communities born out of fear and mistrust. Its not an ideal situation.
vimothy
yurp
In my (reasonably limited) experience, France (Europe in general, in fact) does seem more racist than the UK, and the immigrant communities there seem much more marginalised than over here. It's a bloody mess (of statist economics policies), but I've got my fingers crossed for the moment.
rockypoppy2
wtf?
yeah rioting isnt the way forward for them, it just makes the situation even more tense. Peaceful demonstration and education/awareness is whats needed
vimothy
yurp
But it must also go hand-in-hand with self-criticism and with some sort of civil society. Being angry and pissed off isn't going to get anyone's community very far. Some very bad things happen in the banlieue, very bad indeed, and they have nothing to do with police racism.
Of course but surely it also has to come hand in hand with acknowledgement and understanding of the ways in which these communities are isolated and alienated
vimothy
yurp
I agree (as I've said). The problems are two-fold, and the suburbs are isolated:
1. By economic mismanagement or bad policy choices
2. By their own attachment to violent and exlusivist creeds (like the sort of fascist Islam that has people gang raping women for not wearing the hijab)
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
3. Racial prejudice on the part of the French establishment and majority white population?
Come on, not all immigrants to France are Muslims, and most Muslims aren't rapists. I agree that, as a culture, its male adherents have a tendency not to treat women very well, but that doesn't excuse a blanket prejudice against all Muslims as potential rapists, let alone against all immigrants, does it?
Come on, not all immigrants to France are Muslims, and most Muslims aren't rapists. I agree that, as a culture, its male adherents have a tendency not to treat women very well, but that doesn't excuse a blanket prejudice against all Muslims as potential rapists, let alone against all immigrants, does it?
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