Poor rich people

[vimothy]

And this has been pointed out numerous times to Vim as well. (S)He ignores any data that doesn't fit the libertarian credo. I guess the technical term is the confirmation bias for one's own theories.

You haven't linked to anything, Borderpolice, exept a BBC story about forced sterilisation in Peru.

 

[vimothy]

So Vimothy, who cosigns loans so kids in the ghetto who are good at science get to go to Med School?

Must poor kids be able to go straight from the ghetto to Med School?

 

[nomadologist]

Or any college. Who co-signs their loans? I have an answer for you: no one.

 

[nomadologist]

Whereas a rich kid with mediocre abilities in science has parents who can not only pay upfront for college, but also pay for years of tutoring for science AND the SATs and the MCATs, and can even donate to that college. I wonder who will get into college--the kid from the ghetto who can't even qualify for a loan, or the mediocre rich kid?

Wait--no I don't! I went to college. I know who gets in. Rich kids.

 

[borderpolice]

That's irrelevant. Under subsistence conditions, more inputs equal more outputs.

No, because childbirth and childrearing take time and energy.

If you think that the Chinese government was providing free education to poverty stricken millions in in-land provinces as a matter opf course, and which then sparked off the economic revolution that classical liberals have been claiming as their own, you're decieving yourself.

I didn't say so. the chinese government (and in HK the UK government before return of the territory) did provide education to sufficient numbers to allow industrialisation.

And the only way you do that is by developing your economy:

Commodities - manufactures - services - (who knows?)

We did it, and they will to.

If by "We" you you mean the west, then you are wrong, it was more like:

1. Rediscovery of greek science + invention of printing press => Renaissance
2. Technological progress based on ancient greek insights leads to better seafaring abilities
   and weaponery => Coloniasation + slavery
3. The ressources robbed from the non-european countries allows spreading of education, leading to industrialisation
4. Revolutions broaden the base of those who can govern/have access to some degree of schooling.
5. Trade union movements/feminist movements etc bring about universal suffrage, universal health care, universal schooling, pensions, unemployment benefits and the like, leading to the current level of affluence.

And actually, what you describe as the "cheap labour rut" is China's most valuable resource and the engine powering its transformation.

No, it is the massive leaps in infrastructural and educational improvements.

 

[vimothy]

Or any college. Who co-signs their loans? I have an answer for you: no one.

So what? Must poor kids be able to go straight from the ghetto to college?

Here's how it worked in this country:

Take advantage of the un-skilled and semi-skilled work available to you;

Save money and raise a family;

Send your kids to university.

 

[Slothrop]

Must poor kids be able to go straight from the ghetto to Med School?

Well, I'm not going to start on the moral side of this one. But even from a selfish point of view, if they can't, and if our nice market based system keeps telling them that richer = better, and particularly if there's a large income gap (hey look, we're back where we started) so they can see how much better they'd be doing if they weren't hamstrung from square one by not starting out rich enough, then it's not going to be long before they do something about it. Which in the best case is going to be democratic change to a system that doesn't promote income inequality and minimize class mobility, but is more likely to involve eg armed robbery...

 

[nomadologist]

PFPFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF. Are you kidding?

Let's do a little math here, Vimothy.

Without a college degree in the U.S., you MIGHT qualify to make $8/hour if you are DAMN LUCKY.

That's $320/week, or $250 after taxes, for a grand total of $1000/month. In the inner-city in America, that DOESN'T EVEN COVER RENT FOR a ONE-BEDROOM APARTMENT. Let alone leave enough for school.

 

[Mr. Tea]

The problem is that there is no sigificant difference in human in-built abilities...

While I agree with the bulk of your argument, bp, I think this is pretty patently untrue.
To take an extreme example, some people are born with severe physical or mental disabilities (while some can do complex mental arithmetic at age two).

 

[nomadologist]

And then people like Vimothy think people are crazy for selling drugs.

I'm officially not reading this thread anymore. After walking past a half dozen homeless crackheads when I walked by the projects this morning, I just can't stomach this kind of backward shit.

Because, you know, it's the crackhead's fault he's in the ghetto--it's not the US government that stole his ancestors and sold them into slavery or anything

 

[IdleRich]

"Must poor kids be able to go straight from the ghetto to Med School?"

In a true meritocracy they must be able to if they are good enough.

Or is this really the best you can hope for?

"Take advantage of the un-skilled and semi-skilled work available to you;
Save money and raise a family;
Send your kids to university."

Sacrifice your life to give your children the unfair advantage you didn't have and live vicariously through them. A meritocracy where if you're poor you can aspire to having successful kids?

 

[vimothy]

No, because childbirth and childrearing take time and energy.

You're ignoring historical fact!

I didn't say so. the chinese government (and in HK the UK government before return of the territory) did provide education to sufficient numbers to allow industrialisation.

Are you seriously suggesting that Chinese economic reform is a misnomer and that the Chinese education system is responsible? Were the timing of DXP's reforms a coincidence then?

If by "We" you you mean the west, then you are wrong, it was more like:

I'm meant our economy, as in developing outward from resources through manufactures to services (where we are now) as in what happened inn the short term. I don't need a Marxist inspired run-down of the history of the west.

No, it is the massive leaps in infrastructural and educational improvements.

They wouldn't have happened without FDI, FFS!!

 

[vimothy]

PFPFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF. Are you kidding?

Let's do a little math here, Vimothy.

Without a college degree in the U.S., you MIGHT qualify to make $8/hour if you are DAMN LUCKY.

That's $320/week, or $250 after taxes, for a grand total of $1000/month. In the inner-city in America, that DOESN'T EVEN COVER RENT FOR a ONE-BEDROOM APARTMENT. Let alone leave enough for school.

Well, that's what I eaern, and I've got a degree!

Poor people in the US have it pretty damn good compared to most of the rest of the world AND history.

 

[Slothrop]

Poor people in the US have it pretty damn good compared to most of the rest of the world AND history.

Yet strangely, the ungrateful bastards don't seem too happy when you lean out of the window of your Lexus to point out that at least they've got clean water...

 

[borderpolice]

You told me that, but it's simply not true. I actually replied, saying that

economically free countries are the richest in the world. You mistake large extra-lagal economies in the third world for a lack of government regulations, hence greater economic freedom. In fact, the lack of economic freedom is the reason for the large extra-legal economies.​

I'm mistaking nothing. The shoeshine boy is free to shine as many shoes as he wants, in accordance with supply and demand. The casual economy in the 3rd world countries of my acquaintance is not impeded by government regulations.

If you had followed up my De Soto link, you would know this already.

I looked at the links you posted. I didn't see anything contradicting my point. I have no intention of buying the book because from your summary it doesnt sound very interesting, and because it is likely that the author was involved in crimes against humanity.

in any case, I have been talking about the informal economy in the 3rd world, the shoe-shine boy, the ice-cream seller, the prostitute. Whether you like it or not, this economy is unregulated. Way more so than anything you see in the US or in HK or in the UK.

This is perfectly compatible with 3rd world countries being incredibly bureacratic (which i also know from 1st hand experience, having lived in one). But the bureacracy works on a different level. My point is -- and u keep ignoring this -- that there are extremely free markets that do not improve the lot of its participants.

De Soto famously set up a one-person textile manufacturing workshop in Lima, offically. It took him months, crippling (for a poor business owner) outlay and an amount of bureaucratic steps numbering in the hundreds.

I'm perfectly happy to believe this, but i dont see why this is relevant.

Are you going to link to some studies which support your assertion that third world mixed and command economies are actually paragons of classical liberal economic virtue?

I am talking about the informal economies in the favelas. I am not aware of such studies, although I would not be surprised if they existed. I'm relying on my own experiences. Given the nature of funding of economic research I doubt it is possible to obtain grants that would allow serious research on such matters.

 

[nomadologist]

what's funny is i came from a borderline impoverished family myself to go to a seven sister, and i still know it's INCREDIBLY difficult

there were times in school i would've starved had my friends or boyfriend not given me money.

you better get working, vimothy!! i'm only 24 and I already make five times what you make

 

[Mr. Tea]

So what? Must poor kids be able to go straight from the ghetto to college?

Here's how it worked in this country:

Take advantage of the un-skilled and semi-skilled work available to you;

Save money and raise a family;

Send your kids to university.

Er, I think the fact that (for the latter half of the 20th century, at any rate) university education in the UK was free, there was even a grant to live on at one point and, even now, students in reality pay less than half the fees it costs to educate them, have a hell of a lot to do with this.

 

[borderpolice]

To take an extreme example, some people are born with severe physical or mental disabilities (while some can do complex mental arithmetic at age two).

Yes, but that's a small precentage, prolly less than 1% and ignored for the sake of keeping the argument managable. If you want you can rewrite all my arguments in probabilistic terms. Then it would be more precise, but also less readable.

 

[Mr. Tea]

it's not the US government that stole his ancestors and sold them into slavery or anything

(to be excruciatingly pedantic here, the slaves weren't stolen, but bought from African slavers)

 

[vimothy]

And then people like Vimothy think people are crazy for selling drugs.

When have I ever said that? If you'd read my responses to your posts on other thread (i.e. drug warning), you should be able to infer the opposite.

I'm officially not reading this thread anymore. After walking past a half dozen homeless crackheads when I walked by the projects this morning, I just can't stomach this kind of backward shit.

Yeah, well you and me both. Enjoy blaming someone else for your own lack of success or for your trendy post X-tian guilt.

Because, you know, it's the crackhead's fault he's in the ghetto--it's not the US government that stole his ancestors and sold them into slavery or anything

More fucking lies that make us feel better. "I'm a crack-head because the government stole my heritage." No, you're a crack-head because you smoke crack. 1964 is where this started. Read Thomas Sowell.