good looking people with stuff.

[nomadologist]

know what else is interesting: was talking to one of my lovers about masterbation, and she says that she never thinks about men when she is pleasing herself. (i was a bit hurt actually) but she says that she has never fantasized about men during auto-erotic activities -- while it is unthinkable for me not to think about women in such circumstances.

i'm pretty certain most men are like me. are most women like her?

if so, the only conclusion is that male sexuality is almost entirely dependent on the female; while female sexuality is much more autonomous and independent.

to the boys: they really don't need us

to the girls: how's that for empowering!

From the earliest I can remember engaging in auto-erotic activities, I never once have fantasized about a man or men general or male bodies or anything while doing it. Not once. (And I don't think about women, either.) I just do something that feels good and works. Has nothing to do with guys at all.

Lacan talked about this and someone linked to one of his good quotes about it on dissensus a long time ago...let me see if I can find it...something about how while a woman is always the object of male sexual desire, no one man or object is ever the subject of female desire...it was in something Gavin linked to I think...

 

[nomadologist]

Dude: out of all the people you know, who (on average) owns the most shoes - the men or the women?

I'm not saying obsession-with-surface-and-appearances is quintessentially female either, I don't think it's quintessentially anything actually.

Good point, Mr. Tea, this is something I've read a lot about, female fetishism. Agamben wrote a really great piece on fetishism called Stanzas for people who are into psychoanalysis.

 

[nomadologist]

chasing a man is like a dog chasing a stationary car surely?

and who are all these men purely into vanilla sex? crazy, fucked-up, days-on-end, drugged to the eyeballs, complaints-from-the-neighbours sex is where its at for everyone surely?

I don't know, even the guys who are seemingly the least uptight about most things in life are often really uptight and boring. They are often so focused on doing things that they think are supposed to feel good for girls that I numb out and lose any potential to climax that may have been there.

I've got a boyfriend who is great, so I'm basically satisfied in life. I've never had to chase anyone and never wanted to. I don't miss being single at all, being single was like 1001 nights of terrible sex with fair to middling snorefests.

 

[nomadologist]

Well yeah, look at rates of depression, mental illness, academic failure, drug and alcohol addiction, suicide - sorry, ladies, but we leave you in the dust on those fronts. Of course, as John says, none of this should be mentioned instead of rape, wage inequality and so on, it should be mentioned as well. It's not like there's a fixed amount of human rights that has to be divvied up between the sexes, after all...

Some people think that rates of depression in women are lower because it's underreported (women are taught that it's not their right to do anything but act as emotional support systems for others), and mental illness is overlooked because women are not as likely to be violent or out-of-control as part of their illness. But yeah, no one said life was easy for men. I'm sure rejection is hard for anyone.

 

[tryptych]

I did actually reject a girl once without knowing it. She asked me to go to some slightly naff gothy electronica night and I said "no" thinking she was still with her fella and asking me out as a friend. After that she was really moody with me, little jibes, not speaking, etc... Mr Clueless here had to ask a mutual friend what was going on, by then it was too late to get together, doh!

I do this sort of thing all the time, always without noticing it until much later. I just assume that the girl in question has no interest. It's very annoying.

 

[tryptych]

From the earliest I can remember engaging in auto-erotic activities, I never once have fantasized about a man or men general or male bodies or anything while doing it. Not once. (And I don't think about women, either.) I just do something that feels good and works. Has nothing to do with guys at all.

Lacan talked about this and someone linked to one of his good quotes about it on dissensus a long time ago...let me see if I can find it...something about how while a woman is always the object of male sexual desire, no one man or object is ever the subject of female desire...it was in something Gavin linked to I think...

I've been fully aware of this since my last long term girlfriend, and it makes me forever jealous of women for it.

I think the "it just feels good" side of masturbation is pretty alien to most adult males, sadly. Along with gratification from watching oneself engage in said auto-erotic activities. I've known girls who really enjoy watching themselves in the mirror - personally something I'd find inherently un-sexy.

 

[nomadologist]

I do this sort of thing all the time, always without noticing it until much later. I just assume that the girl in question has no interest. It's very annoying.

I think that the couple of times I tried to create a "hang out" situation with a boy i liked this sort of thing happened, he just didn't get it.

RE rejection--I feel really really bad rejecting well-meaning and sincere types of advances. I can remember as early as elementary school knowing a very very nerdy and shy boy from a very poor family that saved up somehow to buy me a costume-jewelry type ring. He was the sort of kid everyone picked on but I was never like that, especially not to the exceptionally poor kids. He worked up the courage to give it to me and I felt so so terrible having to refuse it. I knew I couldn't keep it and lead him on, either. It was pretty heartbreaking for me as well.

Going out on a limb like that creates an awkward situation for all involved.

It's not easy to reject people. Sometimes it's just as hard to have to do the rejecting as it is to be rejected. Or nearly as hard.

 

[nomadologist]

I think the "it just feels good" side of masturbation is pretty alien to most adult males, sadly. Along with gratification from watching oneself engage in said auto-erotic activities. I've known girls who really enjoy watching themselves in the mirror - personally something I'd find inherently un-sexy.

Well, I think this ties into why men aren't so good in bed without taking some time to learn the individual woman's body--men tend to have one erogenous zone that really matter, his penis, and it seems to me all men can easily achieve orgasm through penile stimulation. This is a very cut-and-dry, paint-by-numbers procedure. Women, on the other hand, have erogenous zones all over their bodies. I think women can have a great time masturbating without having to think of an object or subject to stimulate them, because their entire bodies are made of highly stimulatable-parts to work with. On top of this difference, all women seem to be very very different when it comes to which zones they prefer, and how they prefer to stimulate them.

Women see themselves as a whole being, their body is a whole that is stimulatable as a whole. Men see womens bodies as a bunch of parts that they use to stimulate themselves.

 

[bassnation]

I don't know, even the guys who are seemingly the least uptight about most things in life are often really uptight and boring. They are often so focused on doing things that they think are supposed to feel good for girls that I numb out and lose any potential to climax that may have been there.

I've got a boyfriend who is great, so I'm basically satisfied in life. I've never had to chase anyone and never wanted to. I don't miss being single at all, being single was like 1001 nights of terrible sex with fair to middling snorefests.

i dunno, i guess its hard to quantify what makes it good or bad, but it either clicks or it doesn't. whats more difficult long term (even with someone you click with in every way, sexually and beyond) is keeping it interesting and fulfilling. thing is, after a while you know each other so well you know how to switch them on, but even that can become rote after a while, even with the best intentions. alright, other things become important, but for me, sex is a barometer. ok it doesn't have to be stellar every time and in fact maybe thats unacheivable, esp. when you have kids (and the spontaneity goes out the window when you are likely to be interrupted at inopportune moments). its not impossible, but its not effortless either. when you've seen a woman give birth it kind of changes your view of them in both positive and negative ways.

talking of dates though, and i don't mean this in a boastful sense cos theres been lots of disasters or just boring events, but i've been out with more people in the last year than i have in my entire life previous to that. theres something about actively looking for someone that makes it less likely that you'll find someone (that you really like). the moment you think fuck it, i can't be bothered is the time that you meet the next love of your life. yeah i'm human and i've got needs (but lets be honest, food and shelter come first) but i can easily go without sex. i'm not a meat puppet (i love that phrase). sometimes i wish i could rise above all that stuff and become a higher order intellectual being, like i imagine gek opel to be. i feel like my genes are manipulating me and now and again i can break out of it and see us as we are, advanced weird bacteria, ugly beyond belief, like a phillip k dick story. but then my instincts come crashing back in.

 

[bassnation]

Well, I think this ties into why men aren't so good in bed

i dunno, theres just as many women who aren't comfortable with their bodies who are boring in bed. and its not just about the penis, i agree with what you said about it being a psychological thing. thats why people can get so fucked up about it, male and female. maybe its just american males? although i've heard many stories in the uk from women moaning about blokes who won't "go south" (i'm not talking about croydon)

 

[tryptych]

i've heard many stories in the uk from women moaning about blokes who won't "go south" (i'm not talking about croydon)

Girls who are really into dubstep, I can only assume that's what you mean?

 

[nomadologist]

"clicking" is definitely important. "chemistry." indefinable things that are unique to each individual relationship.

factors like length of relationship and kids are sure to change a sexual relationship, not always for the worse, but definitely they can put a strain on things i'm sure. i think that as people get older and busier in life and have a lot on their minds, sex just becomes less of a priority, whether married or not. i think the typical sitcom married guy who constantly moans about how marriage kills sex probably doesn't know how lucky he has it compared to bachelors of a similar age range.

when you've seen a woman give birth it kind of changes your view of them in both positive and negative ways.

this statement is really, really interesting to me. i read an entire article in the NY Times about men who were "traumatized" by watching their wives give birth and lost their sex drive almost completely. i watched most of my cousins born, it's almost nothing to me, so i don't really understand what the big deal is. can you explain what the negative ways are? i'm really curious about this, since i've heard such varying stories--from men who vomit at the thought to men who insist on sitting in the birthing tub with their wives.

i imagine it shatters a lot of the "mystique" (or illusion) the media and porn are so intent on fabricating about female genital sexuality. i really have come to believe that sex drive in men does start to calm down in middle age because so much of what men build their sex drive upon--ego, the idea of "dominance" and superior strength, the delicacy and fragility of women--slowly gets chipped away at by reality over time. on top of this, men definitely go through their own sort of "menopause" in middle age where their hormone production slows, often spikes (sometimes creating fantom romances--scientists believe many mid-life crisis-induced infatuations with strippers and such are caused by sudden "hot flash" like surges in testosterone as production slows). nowadays thanks to viagra men feel like this is some sort of inadequacy or medical problem that needs treatment. my dad always says he's glad he doesn't give a shit about sex anymore.

the moment you think fuck it, i can't be bothered is the time that you meet the next love of your life.

this is exactly what happened to me...

yeah i'm human and i've got needs (but lets be honest, food and shelter come first) but i can easily go without sex. i'm not a meat puppet (i love that phrase). sometimes i wish i could rise above all that stuff and become a higher order intellectual being, like i imagine gek opel to be. i feel like my genes are manipulating me and now and again i can break out of it and see us as we are, advanced weird bacteria, ugly beyond belief, like a phillip k dick story. but then my instincts come crashing back in.

this whole paragraph is brilliant, every word of it.

 

[nomadologist]

i dunno, theres just as many women who aren't comfortable with their bodies who are boring in bed. and its not just about the penis, i agree with what you said about it being a psychological thing. thats why people can get so fucked up about it, male and female. maybe its just american males? although i've heard many stories in the uk from women moaning about blokes who won't "go south" (i'm not talking about croydon)

i'm sure there are women who suck in bed. i bet most of them do. uptight women abound as well.

ha, well, i don't have a history of dating typical "american" guys usually, and i have had some experience with european and other ethnic groups and haven't seen much of a net difference in ability per encounter.

i know this is sacrilege coming from a woman but i don't really like oral sex more than other types. i like giving it but i don't care much about receiving it. actually i like giving it much much more than i like receiving it.

 

[nomadologist]

yes we all have fetishes, and we all have neurosis, insecurities, and fears. from what i understand, correct me if I'm wrong, a fetish by definition is a sexual fixation on an inanimate object which is substitute for the human.

a fetish is a sexual fixation on something that can often replace the need for another sexual subject but doesn't have to by definition. some people fetishize breasts. some people fetishize asses. feet. eyes. hair. etc.

 

[zhao]

yeah i'm human and i've got needs (but lets be honest, food and shelter come first) but i can easily go without sex. i'm not a meat puppet (i love that phrase). sometimes i wish i could rise above all that stuff and become a higher order intellectual being, like i imagine gek opel to be. i feel like my genes are manipulating me and now and again i can break out of it and see us as we are, advanced weird bacteria, ugly beyond belief, like a phillip k dick story. but then my instincts come crashing back in.

i think people, myself, and others, are beautiful. but then again i'm a meat puppet.

a fetish is a sexual fixation on something that can often replace the need for another sexual subject but doesn't have to by definition. some people fetishize breasts. some people fetishize asses. feet. eyes. hair. etc.

a body part separated from the complete human subject can be construed as an inanimate object in this context. anyhow i maintain that it is a substitute for intimacy and connection born of fear.

i like giving it but i don't care much about receiving it. actually i like giving it much much more than i like receiving it.

... ... ... ............... no comment.

 

[Jaie Miller]

last night this girl was good looking, with stuff, in her vomit!!

She was telling me 'It's my birthday' like it was a part of a flashback:

her: it's my birthday!
me: what can you see?
her: there are people here, they're all dressed up!!! it's my birthday!



throwing up, then telling me 'I'm sorry'

what are the rules about pulling girls after they throwned up??

 

[nomadologist]

i think people, myself, and others, are beautiful. but then again i'm a meat puppet.



a body part separated from the complete human subject can be construed as an inanimate object in this context. anyhow i maintain that it is a substitute for intimacy and connection born of fear.



... ... ... ............... no comment.

there is nothing mutually exclusive between having a strong sexual predilection for a body part and the ability to have "intimacy" without fear. if you really think so then maybe *you* can't have the one with the other, but i wouldn't try to universalize that.

"intimacy" what does that even mean? people have different ideas of what that means and different ideas about how to create that, all of them perfectly valid.

why no comment? is there something wrong with that?

there are no "rules" about sex, that's just silly. there are no easy answers about what is "right" or good.

vomit

 

[zhao]

there is nothing mutually exclusive between having a strong sexual predilection for a body part and the ability to have "intimacy" without fear.

in the advanced stages of sexual fetishism the fetishized object becomes the ONLY source of arousal, and nothing (and no one) else can turn the subject on. like people who NEED panties (or cumumbers or elbows) to have an orgasm, for whom any persons of the opposite (or same) sex does nothing. in cases like this the presence of the fetish object is necessary for, and the only source of, sexual stimulus and gratification.

granted that most people's fetishes do not develop to this level (see difference between "healthy fetishism", which we likely all have, and "pathological fetishism", like the guy who has sex with automobiles), nonetheless this sort of thing, for me, and i'm pretty sure a lot of psychologists, is telling of the true nature of sexual fetishism - a substitution of the human with the inanimate.

a couple of alright definitions from encyclopedias:

a fixation on an inanimate object or body part that is not primarily sexual in nature, and the compulsive need for its use in order to obtain sexual gratification.

the transfer (my italics) of erotic interest to an object, such as an item of clothing, whose real or fantasized presence is necessary for sexual gratification.

we have moved on from the 19th century view of S.F. as an illness, but still "Modern psychology assumes that fetishism either is being conditioned or imprinted or the result of a strong emotional (e.g., traumatic) experience. " (from wiki)

this is an interesting talk on the subject - a few excerpts:

ROBERT J. FILEWICH, PhD: Right. People talk about sexual addicts or people being obsessed with sex, and really they're obsessed with dysfunctional sex. Their everyday sex lives with their partners, if they have partners, are actually quite boring and mundane. They have a hard time maintaining an erection. They have a hard time maintaining intimacy, so they really don't suffer from too much sex, they just have too much bad sex or dysfunctional sex. By "bad," I'm not casting a judgment, I'm just saying for them it becomes a compulsion that interferes in their lives.

DAVID FOLK THOMAS: You said shy people might tend toward fetishism. It seems like you always hear about guys having fetishes. Do women have fetishes?

KEN ROSENBERG, MD: It is a male disorder.

DAVID FOLK THOMAS: Why is it a male disorder?

KEN ROSENBERG, MD: It's an interesting question. Nobody really knows the answer to that, but most of the time it is.

ROBERT J. FILEWICH, PhD: It could be that men are less socialized. They have more difficult times in social situations than women. Women find social situations a lot easier. They talk with each other more. They experience emotions and feelings a lot more, so they're able to go ahead and develop more healthy, adult sexual relationships than men are, so men will turn to an object to go ahead and satisfy their sexual desire because they find it really difficult to connect with a person who they have a sexual desire for.

KEN ROSENBERG, MD: Maybe, but it's so interesting because, actually, women have, on average, more sexual disorders than men, so it's so interesting that fetishism is a male disorder

KEN ROSENBERG, MD: It's a problem when it's the only thing that they can do or when it gets them in trouble. Many people with fetishistic problems don't come to treatment because they want to, they come to treatment because they have to, because their girlfriend says, "You know, I want you to be with me, not with my clothing or not with my shoe."

I'm not passing any moral judgements or trying to put forth any "rules" or even necessarily making a distinction between "healthy" and "unhealthy" sexual practice. all I'm saying is that sexual fetishism is fundamentally a substitution (for the human).

why no comment? is there something wrong with that?

sorry for ambiguity which lead to a completely misunderstanding: i was going to say something along the lines of you being The Perfect Girl but thought that it would be corny.

 

[nomadologist]

in the advanced stages of sexual fetishism the fetishized object becomes the ONLY source of arousal, and nothing (and no one) else can turn the subject on. like people who NEED panties (or cumumbers or elbows) to have an orgasm, for whom any persons of the opposite (or same) sex does nothing. in cases like this the presence of the fetish object is necessary for, and the only source of, sexual stimulus and gratification.

granted that most people's fetishes do not develop to this level (see difference between "healthy fetishism", which we likely all have, and "pathological fetishism", like the guy who has sex with automobiles), nonetheless this sort of thing, for me, and i'm pretty sure a lot of psychologists, is telling of the true nature of sexual fetishism - a substitution of the human with the inanimate.

a couple of alright definitions from encyclopedias:


we have moved on from the 19th century view of S.F. as an illness, but still "Modern psychology assumes that fetishism either is being conditioned or imprinted or the result of a strong emotional (e.g., traumatic) experience. " (from wiki)

this is an interesting talk on the subject - a few excerpts:



I'm not passing any moral judgements or trying to put forth any "rules" or even necessarily making a distinction between "healthy" and "unhealthy" sexual practice. all I'm saying is that sexual fetishism is fundamentally a substitution (for the human).



sorry for ambiguity which lead to a completely misunderstanding: i was going to say something along the lines of you being The Perfect Girl but thought that it would be corny.

sure fetishism is a "substitution" but not necessarily for "the human", it's more complicated than that..."the lack" is a prominent force in the making of *everyone's* sex drive, not just fetishists. everyone's sexuality is built around the loss of the object.

as for this "like people who NEED panties (or cumumbers or elbows) to have an orgasm, for whom any persons of the opposite (or same) sex does nothing" this is extremely rare, all fetishists identify as either straight or gay and are attracted to members of one sex or another. in some cases of advanced fetishism the worship of the object replaces the need for intercourse, but that's hardly the same as losing all interest in other sexual partners.

even foot fetishists will pay good money to have a woman, preferably an attractive one, play out their fantasies regarding feet and foot worship. they don't lose their heterosexuality, they just express it differently.

 

[nomadologist]

And I could probably cite a million people who would disagree with this Rosenberg guy about whether fetishism is solely a male disorder...that's the classic psychoanalytical view but it's been modified about a million times at this point...