Tentative Andy
I'm in the Meal Deal
But it was fun! We were having fun, weren't we kids? Erm, maybe not...
It was Shackleton, btw. There, you all pretty much made me post that, so you're not allowed to be to angry with me.
Now I have to go to sleep.
The sacred cows
But it was fun! We were having fun, weren't we kids? Erm, maybe not...
It was Shackleton, btw. There, you all pretty much made me post that, so you're not allowed to be to angry with me.
Now I have to go to sleep.
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
cows are fucking ruthless killers. the truth's out about them now.
Shackleton's not shit. he's got a good name and some strange drums. But Wiley, El-B, Todd Edwards, Zed Bias and Ruff Sqwad all are. Fucking chancers.
Last edited:
Corpsey
bandz ahoy
I like some Shackleton tunes but a lot of them don't really engage me, rhythmically (which is ironic, I suppose, given the complexity of the rhythms he uses). There are definite exceptions ('I Want To Eat You'), but I don't find a lot of his stuff particularly propulsive - though I'm sure it isn't meant to be.
I do love the atmosphere he builds up on tunes like 'Blood On Your Hands' and his remix of 'Minimoonstar' by Villalobos, though. Weird, hypnotic, unashamedly gloomy.
I do love the atmosphere he builds up on tunes like 'Blood On Your Hands' and his remix of 'Minimoonstar' by Villalobos, though. Weird, hypnotic, unashamedly gloomy.
Tentative Andy
I'm in the Meal Deal
Yeah - I kind of agree with what both Corpsey and Luka are saying, though I wouldn't want to claim that Shackleton is 'shit'. It's not so much that I don't like his work; most of what I've heard I can appreciate in some way, albeit some things more than others. It's more that I feel there are some aspects to both his overall project (as I much as I can understand it) and the way people receive it that are worthy of being critiqued, but seem to have avoided being so up till now - hence the sacred cow status.
My main problem with his music is that, to my ears, it employs all the classic signifiers of being 'deep' and 'serious' - long tracks, lack of obvious hooks, use of sampled analogue sounds and generally warm textures, use of samples in seemingly 'meaningful' but unspecified ways -, but without actually delivering anything that is genuinely challenging, or indeed just anything that is really new. His tunes aren't all that dark, neither are they really all that transcendent; the beats and textures are never very weird and twisted, too often the tunes just seem to drift along in a rather solemn fashion.
I also really feel that the stance of 'he doesn't use loops to build his percussion tracks!!!' (Oh gee oh wow!) that I've heard mentioned by fans of his on several occassions is very much the rhythmic equivalent of the fallacy Slothrop pointed out in relation to post-Basic Channel artists insisting you need to spend silly ammounts of money on amassing vintage analogue sound equipment in order to make your music 'really warm and human'. Or indeed the insistence that it's never ok to use preset sounds on synths or software. Some of the most rhythmically exciting and involving music I've ever heard, from ardcore, jungle, hip-hop, funky and many other areas, uses drum/percussion loops of some form or another, I don't see why it should be viewed as an inferior method.
Another thing that's often argued in his favour is that he's one of the few dubstep producers to use 'ethnic'/'tribal' samples in a 'responsible' way, providing some insight on the culture they come from rather than just using them to add a bit of exotic flavour. I'm not so sure though - maybe he isn't as bad as some, fair enough, but the samples still seem pretty non-specific to me, they seem to usually just signify 'meditative' and or 'mysterious', there's no real engagement with the role they play either in their own culture or in ours. Obv it's only one tune, but something like I Am Animal just seems naff - the title, the tune centering on heavy breathing plus repetetive hand percussion, then to top it off the corny cover drawing of skeletons playing the bongos, it all seems to add up to primitivism of cliched and patronising kind. (That's another minor gripe I have with him, some of his tune titles - I mean, I Want To Eat You, how old are you Shack, 12?
).
But I wouldn't want to overemphasise that whole aspcect, because as I've said the real drawback to me is that, to borrow mistersloane's terminology, the whole atmosphere of his work just feels a bit 'sixth form'. I know that might sound like a cheap shot but it's genuinely how I feel. It's odd too, because what he's doing is clearly quite close to a number of other artists - Peverelist in some ways, Loefah in others - that I not only really like but would defend the merit of at some length.
I dunno if that all explains it well. To finish on a positive note, I'll say that imo Naked, Hypno Angel and You Bring Me Down are all genuinely excellent tunes.
My main problem with his music is that, to my ears, it employs all the classic signifiers of being 'deep' and 'serious' - long tracks, lack of obvious hooks, use of sampled analogue sounds and generally warm textures, use of samples in seemingly 'meaningful' but unspecified ways -, but without actually delivering anything that is genuinely challenging, or indeed just anything that is really new. His tunes aren't all that dark, neither are they really all that transcendent; the beats and textures are never very weird and twisted, too often the tunes just seem to drift along in a rather solemn fashion.
I also really feel that the stance of 'he doesn't use loops to build his percussion tracks!!!' (Oh gee oh wow!) that I've heard mentioned by fans of his on several occassions is very much the rhythmic equivalent of the fallacy Slothrop pointed out in relation to post-Basic Channel artists insisting you need to spend silly ammounts of money on amassing vintage analogue sound equipment in order to make your music 'really warm and human'. Or indeed the insistence that it's never ok to use preset sounds on synths or software. Some of the most rhythmically exciting and involving music I've ever heard, from ardcore, jungle, hip-hop, funky and many other areas, uses drum/percussion loops of some form or another, I don't see why it should be viewed as an inferior method.
Another thing that's often argued in his favour is that he's one of the few dubstep producers to use 'ethnic'/'tribal' samples in a 'responsible' way, providing some insight on the culture they come from rather than just using them to add a bit of exotic flavour. I'm not so sure though - maybe he isn't as bad as some, fair enough, but the samples still seem pretty non-specific to me, they seem to usually just signify 'meditative' and or 'mysterious', there's no real engagement with the role they play either in their own culture or in ours. Obv it's only one tune, but something like I Am Animal just seems naff - the title, the tune centering on heavy breathing plus repetetive hand percussion, then to top it off the corny cover drawing of skeletons playing the bongos, it all seems to add up to primitivism of cliched and patronising kind. (That's another minor gripe I have with him, some of his tune titles - I mean, I Want To Eat You, how old are you Shack, 12?
).But I wouldn't want to overemphasise that whole aspcect, because as I've said the real drawback to me is that, to borrow mistersloane's terminology, the whole atmosphere of his work just feels a bit 'sixth form'. I know that might sound like a cheap shot but it's genuinely how I feel. It's odd too, because what he's doing is clearly quite close to a number of other artists - Peverelist in some ways, Loefah in others - that I not only really like but would defend the merit of at some length.
I dunno if that all explains it well. To finish on a positive note, I'll say that imo Naked, Hypno Angel and You Bring Me Down are all genuinely excellent tunes.
UFO over easy
online mahjong
lol how could you know that
CrowleyHead
Well-known member
I look at Shackleton like I guess some people look at really complex jazz. It's cool, but more often than not, it goes over my head. Shackleton's cool as far as music to get lost into, but it's not... Dare I say, appealing?
Amplesamples
Well-known member
Well, since someone has been brave enough to mention Shackleton (I quite like him, got a few of his tunes, but a lot of it doesn't move me either - that MAH session a year or two ago was brilliant however), I'm going to go for Zed Bias' Neighbourhood.
I really hate that tune. I hated it when it when it came out, and it winds me up that I still see it on mixes (most recently MJ Cole's one for FACT). Even if they are remixes, they never seem to miss out the incredibly inane and banal vocals that go throughout that entire track.
It's specifically the vocal that annoys me - it's the very worst example of MCing for the sake of it - it adds nothing to the music, and actually takes quite a lot away. I could never see the huge fuss over that tune.
I can't speak for the rest their output but that tune seriously sucks, and I still don't know how's it seen as a UK Garage/proto-dubstep/'whatever you want to call it' classic.
I really hate that tune. I hated it when it when it came out, and it winds me up that I still see it on mixes (most recently MJ Cole's one for FACT). Even if they are remixes, they never seem to miss out the incredibly inane and banal vocals that go throughout that entire track.
It's specifically the vocal that annoys me - it's the very worst example of MCing for the sake of it - it adds nothing to the music, and actually takes quite a lot away. I could never see the huge fuss over that tune.
I can't speak for the rest their output but that tune seriously sucks, and I still don't know how's it seen as a UK Garage/proto-dubstep/'whatever you want to call it' classic.
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
Vocal is passable I'd say, but it's not what draws people to the tune. That'd be the double bassline and the great hook.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
definitely. I remember hearing it for the first time as a supposed UKG anthem - admittedly wildly out of context; not in the UK, not during 2step's heyday, not on a big soundsystem - & being a bit wtf? or rather, as baboon says, the bassline & hook, everything really but the vocal, is great, but the vocal is just so awful...actually it reminds of this old DJ SS tune, which is proper excellent '93 darkside jungle tekno bizness until this absolutely terrible piano break comes in at about the 2:30 mark.
also, come on now Shackleton is hardly a sacred cow is he? certainly not one that's going to set people off.
4linehaiku
Repetitive
I think this was briefly mentioned already, but Wiley is surely the most untouchable of sacred cows. It's not that he can do no wrong, it's just that any action he performs seems to transcend value judgments through the power of their Wileyness alone.
If he released nothing for a year and then put out a Youtube video of himself mumbling incoherently about dwindling fish stocks in the North Sea it would be "classic Wiley". If he released (another) totally mediocre mixtape with 1 good tune on it, and promoted it entirely via eccentrically capitalised forum posts? Business as usual.
The key achievement is that crap Wiley is not excused due to the huge amount of great Wiley, which is pretty standard for any sacred cow ish legend, but in fact the crap Wiley is somehow as equally important as the great stuff, in terms of the Wiley 'brand' so to speak.
I really can't see any possible angle of criticism that can't be soundly defeated by "Well yeah but that's Wiley isn't it?".
PS This is exactly how it should be by the way. I have no problem with the bovines.
If he released nothing for a year and then put out a Youtube video of himself mumbling incoherently about dwindling fish stocks in the North Sea it would be "classic Wiley". If he released (another) totally mediocre mixtape with 1 good tune on it, and promoted it entirely via eccentrically capitalised forum posts? Business as usual.
The key achievement is that crap Wiley is not excused due to the huge amount of great Wiley, which is pretty standard for any sacred cow ish legend, but in fact the crap Wiley is somehow as equally important as the great stuff, in terms of the Wiley 'brand' so to speak.
I really can't see any possible angle of criticism that can't be soundly defeated by "Well yeah but that's Wiley isn't it?".
PS This is exactly how it should be by the way. I have no problem with the bovines.
CrowleyHead
Well-known member
Wiley's inable to be Advanced (By that, I'm referring to the Chuck Klosterman definition, if anyone here knows what I'm talking about). Wiley cannot break any rules, because he exists to break said rules. It's like a Neil Young or a Bob Dylan thing.
So many people in Hip-Hop (though, I don't like referring to Hip-Hop when discussing grime), do this thing where they just stockpile and stockpile and save, and save... They build up these MASSIVE archives.
But then, they don't put shit out. Now, these are guys of varying talent and function in Hip-Hop. The only two people who it seems can't STOP releasing music are both Wiley and Lil' Wayne.
So by that right, Wiley's Wileyness is actually refreshing. Because I don't want to hear about some dude stockpiling all these fucking tunes that are probably garbage, and bragging about "Hey man, I got so much heat, just sitting around in the vault.". It's what's elevated Dre and Timbaland and other dudes to sacred cow status. JUST, PUT, SHIT, OUT! Not everything you do is going to be heat!
Wiley lacks any sort of restraint. And while the quality is tenuous, it's still satisfying to keep running into tunes, especially when they really pay off. As opposed to the wait, the anticipation, the building, etc. etc., MAYBE JUST MAYBE getting a leak... and by the point you actually get a leak, you don't care what's going on.
So many people in Hip-Hop (though, I don't like referring to Hip-Hop when discussing grime), do this thing where they just stockpile and stockpile and save, and save... They build up these MASSIVE archives.
But then, they don't put shit out. Now, these are guys of varying talent and function in Hip-Hop. The only two people who it seems can't STOP releasing music are both Wiley and Lil' Wayne.
So by that right, Wiley's Wileyness is actually refreshing. Because I don't want to hear about some dude stockpiling all these fucking tunes that are probably garbage, and bragging about "Hey man, I got so much heat, just sitting around in the vault.". It's what's elevated Dre and Timbaland and other dudes to sacred cow status. JUST, PUT, SHIT, OUT! Not everything you do is going to be heat!
Wiley lacks any sort of restraint. And while the quality is tenuous, it's still satisfying to keep running into tunes, especially when they really pay off. As opposed to the wait, the anticipation, the building, etc. etc., MAYBE JUST MAYBE getting a leak... and by the point you actually get a leak, you don't care what's going on.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
that sounds like the greatest thing ever, actually. I ask - who in their right mind would not love to see Wiley ramble incoherently about deforestation or capital gains tax or whatever? I'd pay good $ for it, surely the inevitable bizarre yet oddly insightful non sequiturs alone would be worth it.
dead-on post too, btw.