Can They Paint Or Not?

[IdleRich]

Anyone seen that Art-School Confidential film? A missed opportunity to do something funny - there surely can't be many easier targets. I did like the bit at the start though where some pretentious hippy chick turns up barefoot and stands on some broken glass.

 

[3 Body No Problem]

I've been attending quite a lot of the art school graduation shows that are on at the Truman brewery in Brick Lane. I always find some really nice stuff. OK, quality varies. But what do you expect from graduates? Are graduating lawyers or engineers already on par with the masters of their fields? Hardly.

 

[IdleRich]

"I've been attending quite a lot of the art school graduation shows that are on at the Truman brewery in Brick Lane. I always find some really nice stuff. OK, quality varies. But what do you expect from graduates? Are graduating lawyers or engineers already on par with the masters of their fields? Hardly."

Well no but you expect them to be on a trajectory somewhere between that goal and the beginning point which I would consider to be as a person who had never studied in that field at all. I think that what people are bemoaning is an apparent lack of progress along that path. That's not to say that there is never anything good in the graduate shows or post-grad or whatever because that would be far too strong a claim, I just suspect that whereas the engineer who can't understand his calculations will fail his exams and be kicked out it's much more likely that at St Martins or similar someone who has no ideas will be able to stay on the course by bluffing. Not Gavin Turk though famously so maybe I'm wrong.

 

[mistersloane]

I completed a masters - with a first in what I submitted - and then refused to give them the fees for it, I was like 'you should be paying me motherfuckers!'. I hated being back at school, and hated the lack of ambition of the people, and what they were doing to people who had less of a grip on why they were there, y'know, post-grad doesn't mean anything to these kids, it's just a way to get a better job, but the tutors weren't engaging with that, uuurgh I'm gonna stop, makes me angry.

You pretty much have to go to art school to meet the contacts - and be taken seriously by the people you meet, initially - if you want to in any way make a living from it. There are other ways but you don't get to high grade level through them, really, they want to nurture their young.

I couldn't believe the amount of bullshit I was being fed, and I LIKE theory, but please. It doesn't mean you have to swallow it. I purposely didn't answer this thread for ages cos I can go on about it for hours, and it's just wasted breath. Steal what you need from 'em, and what you can't eat, burn.

 

[3 Body No Problem]

just suspect that whereas the engineer who can't understand his calculations will fail his exams and be kicked out it's much more likely that at St Martins or similar someone who has no ideas will be able to stay on the course by bluffing.

Art isn't an objective science. While you can test an electrical engineer on her knowledge of the FFT, there simply are no such critera in art.

Most great revolutionaries in art were criticised as talentless buffoons by the mainstream of their time. And relative those mainstream standards they might even have been. But those standards were obsolete.

 

[3 Body No Problem]

I couldn't believe the amount of bullshit I was being fed, and I LIKE theory, but please. It doesn't mean you have to swallow it.

I'd say that graduate education is basically about learning and developing for yourself. Adults at that level don't really need to be taught. They need a genial environment where they can throw their ideas about and get feedback -- and maybe the occasional shoulder to cry on. If a student can't handle that freedom, they're in the wrong place.

That's how I see postgraduate students. And that's how I treat mine.

Of course many stay on and do advanced degrees for the wrong reasons, like because they don't know what else to do with their lives.

 

[IdleRich]

"Art isn't an objective science. While you can test an electrical engineer on her knowledge of the FFT, there simply are no such critera in art.
Most great revolutionaries in art were criticised as talentless buffoons by the mainstream of their time. And relative those mainstream standards they might even have been. But those standards were obsolete."

Of course, I recognise that, I'm just saying that that provides camouflage for some people. Look at it this way, supposing you had no talent whatsoever for art or engineering but your life depended on successfully completing a degree in one of those disciplines, which would you go for?

 

[3 Body No Problem]

Of course, I recognise that, I'm just saying that that provides camouflage for some people.

That's right. So what. Society always produces a fair number of dimwits. At least as artists they don't do much harm.

In any case, the famous art colleges in London seem to produce a steady stream of successful designers, architects, entrepreneurs,advertising types, musician and so on. No risk, no reward!

Look at it this way, supposing you had no talent whatsoever for art or engineering but your life depended on successfully completing a degree in one of those disciplines, which would you go for?

Well, isn't it great that art offers this lifeline?

 

[IdleRich]

"That's right. So what. Society always produces a fair number of dimwits. At least as artists they don't do much harm."

That's pretty much what I said in my first post isn't it?

"Well, isn't it great that art offers this lifeline?"

I guess you could say that but my point is that a less dramatic version of my dilemma explains why a lot of graduate shows aren't very good.

 

[3 Body No Problem]

That's pretty much what I said in my first post isn't it? [...] I guess you could say that but my point is that a less dramatic version of my dilemma explains why a lot of graduate shows aren't very good.

Yes, it could be an explanation. An alternative explanation would be that your expectations are unrealistically high.

Finally: the 10 or so graduation shows I have seen this year were mostly rather nice!

 

[luka]

i've never seen anything remotely good ever. not one single thing. they should be crushed to death by elephants.

 

[zhao]

I have made arrangements for access to a big studio, and I'm going back to painting in the autumn. mark my words. lock up your daughters. prepare the skillet. (don't know what that last one means)

 

[Benny Bunter]

My ex-girlfriend was an art student and she used to come home with all sorts of shite that she'd made out of bits of scrap metal and that. Dreadful.

The thing is that she could actually paint pretty well before she went to college but she started
with all this conceptual bollocks once she was studying. It made me wonder what on earth they were teaching them. And yes, almost all the stuff in the graduation show was worthless too. Its a crying shame...



And she used to borrow my cds to listen to in the studio and bring them back covered in plaster of fucking paris. I'm not bitter or anything though...

 

[noel emits]

I have made arrangements for access to a big studio, and I'm going back to painting in the autumn. mark my words. lock up your daughters. prepare the skillet. (don't know what that last one means)

Yeah but is there any skillet in it? Innit.

 

[noel emits]

The thing is that she could actually paint pretty well before she went to college but she started with all this conceptual bollocks once she was studying. It made me wonder what on earth they were teaching them.

I think the other thing that happens is if you get a sense of the bullshit of these places or how mickey mouse they are, then you just don't want to sully any genuine or honest work by having it associated in any way, or by submitting it for judgement by complete wankers. So you get a kind of retreat reaction, or just end up taking the piss.

In Eno's diary book he talks about the place he went to as this Utopian forum for ideas and experimentation. Or at least it could provide a facilitation, help students understand how they can realise their ideas even on just a practical level.

But anyway, there's hardly any artists who operate in that world that I have any admiration for at all.

 

[3 Body No Problem]

My ex-girlfriend was an art student and she used to come home with all sorts of shite that she'd made out of bits of scrap metal and that. Dreadful.

The thing is that she could actually paint pretty well before she went to college but she started
with all this conceptual bollocks once she was studying. It made me wonder what on earth they were teaching them. And yes, almost all the stuff in the graduation show was worthless too. Its a crying shame...

My ex-girlfriend was a student of chinese and she used to come home with all sorts of funny words and characters that she'd made with pen and paper. Dreadful.

The thing is that she could actually speak english pretty well before she went to college but she started with all this chinese bollocks once she was studying. It made me wonder what on earth they were teaching them. And yes, almost all chinese text in the graduation show was worthless too. Its a crying shame...

 

[Mr. Tea]

i've never seen anything remotely good ever. not one single thing. they should be crushed to death by elephants.

Can I film that and then play it back in reverse on an upside-down telly as a video installation piece?

 

[zhao]

Yeah but is there any skillet in it? Innit.

no skills involved whatsoever. i will position the work within a discourse of "institutional critique", embodying a very personal narrative through which hot topics of the day such as appropriation, identity, duration, power and the gaze, etc., will be examined. just kidding.

 

[Mr. Tea]

My ex-girlfriend was a student of chinese and she used to come home with all sorts of funny words and characters that she'd made with pen and paper. Dreadful.

The thing is that she could actually speak english pretty well before she went to college but she started with all this chinese bollocks once she was studying. It made me wonder what on earth they were teaching them. And yes, almost all chinese text in the graduation show was worthless too. Its a crying shame...

I don't think that's a particularly good analogy. You can be objectively good, bad or indifferent at speaking Chinese for one thing; for another, it's pretty easy to test this by talking to a native speaker of the language; it's also a useful skill that people are more likely to learn for a practical purpose than dabble in for fun.

 

[Benny Bunter]

I don't think that's a particularly good analogy. You can be objectively good, bad or indifferent at speaking Chinese for one thing; for another, it's pretty easy to test this by talking to a native speaker of the language; it's also a useful skill that people are more likely to learn for a practical purpose than dabble in for fun.

Yeah 3bodyproblem, that was a bit rubbish

I'm not criticising all art teachers, I was just sharing my own experience of what amounted to a piss-poor show of work at this particular college. But judging from the other posts on the thread it seems to be a pretty common one.