High profiles murders in the U.S: what is going on?

[nomadthethird]

Precisely, thanks Mr Tea. The amount of blokes I've known that went out, got bladdered and then got the shit kicked out of them for reasons that they were utterly unaware of are too numerous to mention. Would this have occurred if they weren't drunk - possibly, would they have been able to get out of this if they weren't drunk - possibly, were they able to avoid this whilst drunk - apparently not.

I've seen plenty of cases where women who were passed out in cars got raped by their taxi driver - would they have tried this if she was sober and able to identify them afterwards? Like I say, it's not a problem with drinking alcohol per se, it's very much a problem of drinking till paralytic and then having no idea what's going on, not knowing where your friends are, etc. The idea that women don't get into that state unless they've been spiked is a nonsense, because I've witnessed women (and men) that drunk on far too many occassions, some who injured themselves, ended up in hospital and had no idea how they got there - they got that drunk cause they could and they wanted to.

Do try and understand that this isn't being condescending to the poor ickle ladies, just that I have plenty of women friends that do get themselves this fucked and seem to think that because something hasn't happened yet that it won't. Most of them fortunately have good people around them, but this doesn't mean they're always there. I can remember ages back when I met up with a random group at the pub, ended up back at their friend's house chatting and boozing and by the end of the night their incredibly drunk friend had just basically fallen asleep in my lap, and they were all wandering off home - now I left with them, but if I'd been some rapist piece of shit, that would be a gift wouldn't it?

I don't think you get it. If you were a rapist, you'd find a way to rape someone with or without alcohol.

 

[nomadthethird]

Look, can you seriously not see that a person who is blind drunk is much more vulnerable to someone doing things to them against their will - be it robbery, rape, whatever - than they would be sober? You've never been at a house party where some guy's passed out and ended up with crapped daubed all over his face in lipstick and felt pen? As Shonx points out, this argument applies every bit as much to men as it does to women, the only difference being that men are presumably more likely to be violently (but pointlessly) assaulted, rather than raped.

Rapists aren't very nice people (duh). If some guy is prepared to do something like that at all, he's not going to hold back from molesting a drunk woman because it would be 'unsporting' - he's going to jump at the chance because it's easy pickings. Horrible, but true. And even ignoring the alcohol factor in how likely a rape is to occur in the first place, it's surely going to make it much more difficult to get a conviction if the victim can't remember what happened and what her attacker looked like or did to her, isn't it? I'm sure I don't have to mention how depressing the detection rate is for rape.

No-one - certainly no-one here, at any rate - is saying that a drunk woman 'deserves' to be raped any more than a sober one does, or that a drunk woman is 'asking to be raped', or that a man who rapes a drunk woman is in any way less morally culpable than the rapist of a sober woman. If anything, my instinct would be that it's even more despicable. But on a purely pragmatic level, a drunk woman - a drunk person - is more vulnerable. I can't see how this isn't screamingly self-evident.

So what? A person who drives a BMW is more vulnerable to a car jacking. Should no one buy a beamer?

This is just stupid. It's the most blatant, obvious sexism. Keep beating the drum.

Drunk women make bigger targets, therefore it's bad to get drunk. Therefore women drinking is some sort of "problem", rather than RAPE ITSELF being the problem.

It's ridiculous this insistence on a victims own complicity in the crime someone commits AGAINST them.

If you're a big enough idiot that alcohol causes you to completely lose your mind and sense of what might be a bad idea, then you probably have much bigger problems than the alcohol.

 

[nomadthethird]

The idea that women don't get into that state unless they've been spiked is a nonsense, because I've witnessed women (and men) that drunk on far too many occassions, some who injured themselves, ended up in hospital and had no idea how they got there - they got that drunk cause they could and they wanted to.

Who ever said people can't get incredibly drunk without being "spiked"? I certainly didn't. I said that a lot of rapists use drugs to sedate victims.


Yes, if women pass out somewhere it's definitely their little "gift" to a rapist. Yes, women shouldn't ever have fun just in case someone might rape them.

 

[nomadthethird]

Yeah, someone I know on another forum said there's this woman who works in his office who, every Monday, would come in with some tale about how rough she felt on Saturday or Sunday morning and that someone "must've spiked her drink" the night before. So he'd say "Well how much did you drink?" and she'd be like "Oh, about five double vodkas..."

Five double vodkas isn't *that* much. Certainly enough to produce a hangover, but not enough to black out.

If you drink five double vodkas with any regularity, it wouldn't be much at all. Alcohol use over time produces a tolerance.

 

[nomadthethird]

Ah yes, another familiar old nomadism: only America has real crime and social problems. Alcoholism in Britain is limited to the village rector getting a bit red-nosed on sweet sherry after evensong, crime consists principally of cheeky young scamps stealing apples from fist-shaking greengrocers and when children get involved in gangs it amounts to a conker cartel in the prep-school playground...

Haha. British "gangs".

I'll feel sorry for you when MS13 is at every high school.

 

[Mr. Tea]

That's not at all what I said. Alcoholism is a problem everywhere.

But if fucking hoodies are considered a serious issue, your society must be pretty fucking idyllic.

Fuck you, Mr. Tea. Why don't you go save someone from immanent rape at a bar or something?

You said:

The UK's problems, if these are really the big important problems Brits seem to think they are, are so trivial as to seem utterly ridiculous. If these are the most pressing social problems you all have to worry about you're damn lucky.

No-one except a few mad old biddies gives a shit what these kids wear, it's the fact that they're carrying knives and guns and fucking killing each other that tends to give people cause for concern. Just because the tabloid press gets the wrong end of the stick about a social problem and starts getting hysterical over something fundamentally cosmetic and superficial, that hardly means there isn't actually a problem there, does it?

 

[nomadthethird]

I'm not talking about a couple of old biddies, I'm talking about tons of articles I read in the mainstream media.

 

[nomadthethird]

Is it altering your life when you 'have' to eat and sleep and not open the cabin door in a flying aircraft or swim with sharks?

You should be able to do whatever you goddamn well please as long as you're not hurting anyone.

So "men" are the sharks (who obviously can't help but rape "drunk women" who are the bait) in this analogy?

Priceless.

 

[Mr. Tea]

So what? A person who drives a BMW is more vulnerable to a car jacking. Should no one buy a beamer?

A person who leaves their car unlocked is more likely to have it stolen than someone who locks theirs, would be a better analogy.

Drunk women make bigger targets, therefore it's bad to get drunk. Therefore women drinking is some sort of "problem", rather than RAPE ITSELF being the problem.

Yes, it's bad to get so shitfaced you're incapable of even the rudiments of looking after yourself. It's also bad to stick a fork in a toaster that's turned on. This does not affect your statutory rights to stick forks in toasters...

It's ridiculous this insistence on a victims own complicity in the crime someone commits AGAINST them.

I might as well give up here because you're clearly incapable of reading what I wrote in plain English a few posts ago.

If you're a big enough idiot that alcohol causes you to completely lose your mind and sense of what might be a bad idea, then you probably have much bigger problems than the alcohol.

Well all I can say is, you've obviously never got as drunk as a lot of people get on a regular basis, because that is exactly what (enough) alcohol can do. It can make you lose any sense of anything whatsoever. And yes, a lot of people do have a big problem with it.

 

[Mr. Tea]

You should be able to do whatever you goddamn well please as long as you're not hurting anyone.

Yeah, I'm sure telling that to a rapist is going to stop him right in his tracks.

So "men" are the sharks (who obviously can't help but rape "drunk women" who are the bait) in this analogy?

Priceless.

I would like to tender the possibly controversial point that not all "men" are "rapists".

 

[nomadthethird]

Right, I've obviously never been blackout intoxicated. Obviously. That's it.

That's exactly my problem, that I didn't spend every day for 4 years so strung out on heroin that I could barely keep my eyes open.

This is why I can't possibly understand why it's bad for ANYONE to get too drunk (not just women--why make a special case of women? because you have a sexist double standard for human behavior, of course.)

 

[Mr. Tea]

This is why I can't possibly understand why it's bad for ANYONE to get too drunk (not just women--why make a special case of women? because you have a sexist double standard for human behavior, of course.)

Again, you've obviously ignored the last few pages of posts where Shonx and I discussed at some length that men are vulnerable when blind drunk too. Be that as it may, most rape victims are women. Do you dispute this? If it makes you feel any better men are probably more vulnerable to having their heads kicked in for no reason.

 

[nomadthethird]

Yeah, I'm sure telling that to a rapist is going to stop him right in his tracks.



I would like to tender the possibly controversial point that not all "men" are "rapists".

The proper pursuit of legal measures and severe penalties (rapists don't generally do much time, until they become "serial rapists" and there's a preponderance of DNA evidence and even then they still don't do enough time) and adequate law enforcement training and response to sexual assault allegations is what will stop rapists.

This and early childhood education regarding the rights all women have not to be sexually assaulted. And it would help if society didn't consistently pound it into peoples' heads that only passed out drunk sorority girls and women who take the bus alone late at night in a miniskirt and stillettos get raped. So that we stop blaming victims or ONCE AGAIN putting all of the responsibility for MALE BEHAVIOR on women.

Did someone say all men are rapists? I sure didn't.

 

[nomadthethird]

If you'll note, I never said it wasn't potentially dangerous for people in general to get severely intoxicated.

I took issue with the idea that "women drinking like men" is some sort of horrible side-effect of the female fight for equality, as if women only get drunk because they want to "be like men" or assert their rights, even if this means they are going to dangle themselves as rapist bait because, goddamn it, if men can drink a lot, they can.

Women have always drunk alcohol. Some in large quantities.

People drink or do other drugs because there is a biological incentive to do so. It's pleasureable. It's fun. It's a cornerstone of socialization in our culture.

 

[Mr. Tea]

The proper pursuit of legal measures and severe penalties (rapists don't generally do much time, until they become "serial rapists" and there's a preponderance of DNA evidence and even then they still don't do enough time) and adequate law enforcement training and response to sexual assault allegations is what will stop rapists.

This and early childhood education regarding the rights all women have not to be sexually assaulted. And it would help if society didn't consistently pound it into peoples' heads that only passed out drunk sorority girls and women who take the bus alone late at night in a miniskirt and stillettos get raped. So that we stop blaming victims or ONCE AGAIN putting all of the responsibility for MALE BEHAVIOR on women.

OK, I see your point, but I think it's whistfull thinking to imagine that rape is just going to disappear if women go around with the conviction that it's never going to happen to them just because it shouldn't happen. Of course it shouldn't happen, that's a given. Do you see what I mean here?

Did someone say all men are rapists? I sure didn't.

It was this line:

So "men" are the sharks (who obviously can't help but rape "drunk women" who are the bait) in this analogy?

that certainly seemed to imply as much, yes.

 

[nomadthethird]

A person who leaves their car unlocked is more likely to have it stolen than someone who locks theirs, would be a better analogy.

Oooh, another good one. Women get raped because they left their "door unlocked", not because completely sick in the head fucking assholes decide that they will physically overpower someone and have sex with them.

Men don't understand that rapists don't get off on sex, they get off on violence.

 

[nomadthethird]

OK, I see your point, but I think it's whistfull thinking to imagine that rape is just going to disappear if women go around with the conviction that it's never going to happen to them just because it shouldn't happen. Of course it shouldn't happen, that's a given. Do you see what I mean here?



It was this line:



that certainly seemed to imply as much, yes.

That last thing about "men are sharks" was me making fun of an analogy jambo made. I certainly don't believe that this is the case. In fact, I think men are perfectly capable of controlling themselves, and people need to stop making excuses for rapists, as if rapists only exist because women in vulnerable situations exist.

This is just not the case.

 

[jambo]

You should be able to do whatever you goddamn well please as long as you're not hurting anyone.

You can do whatever you please, there is no should about it.

What does it mean to 'alter your life', to alter it away from what - what you would rather do or not do? How far do you take it? Is it altering your life when you 'have' to eat and sleep and not open the cabin door in a flying aircraft or swim with sharks?

It's about choices given the circumstances as you see them and as you respond to what you see.

So "men" are the sharks (who obviously can't help but rape "drunk women" who are the bait) in this analogy?

No not at all, I'm asking what it means to say, as you say, to 'alter one's life'. Presumably you make choices all the time, you alter your behaviour based on your response to circumstances as you perceive them. You don't have to do anything or not do anything, you make an assessment, or you make a choice not to make an assessment.

Sharks is only analogous in that it is a potential hazard. Is there a distinction made because the problem is caused by humans who are presumed capable of making choices? If you refuse to recognise limitations on freedom I approve, but how far do you take it? All sorts of problems and hazards are caused by humans, generally we make choices and provisions to avoid being unduly negatively affected by them. We fight against wrong things but if they do exist isn't it really that you have made a decision as to how to respond, or not, to circumstances as you perceive them?

Just to be clear on the broader point, of course it isn't women being very drunk that is the cause of 'the problem', and I hear that you don't consider this even to be a significant factor. Maybe this last bit is more central to your argument?

 

[nomadthethird]

It's a potential hazard to drive a car. Should no one drive one?

Women being drunk does not *cause* rape. The fact that there are rapists and predators who want to rape people causes rape.

What do you mean "is it a significant factor"? In what? The fact that rapists exist?

Nope. It's obviously not.

 

[nomadthethird]

One thing that seems to feed rapists is the idea that rape is some kind of "damaging" act, as if women can't possibly have a good life after they've been raped. The belief held by many men and women-- that women who have been raped are somehow unstable and incapable of having a normal life--is baseless and ridiculous. It takes some work and possibly anti-anxiety medication (for PTSD), but most victims of rape are able to recover and lead full and healthy lives. (It's not just women who get PTSD, men do too, let's remember...)

I think we need to stop talking this way about rape immediately. The media need to stop sensationalizing rape. Sensational images of rape, shows with excessive morbid reenactments of rape or the effects of rape trauma (Law & Order: SVU, for one, the CSI franchise, for another), need to stop. They feed the impulse and the superstitions and misinformation that make it more difficult to effectively arrest and prosecute rapists.

We need to stop acting as if women can somehow do something that will cause them to get raped. No one can do anything that *causes* them to get raped, rapists cause rape. The intention of the rapist to commit rape causes rape. Drunkenness does not *cause* rape. If you think you can't possibly drink without getting raped (or beaten up, or whatever), don't drink. But don't project your fears onto everyone.

I don't live in fear. I'll avoid being alone with strangers until I die. This will by no means, however, ensure that I will not be raped. Especially given the fact that, as I've pointed out several times, MOST WOMEN (the vast statistical majority) ARE RAPED BY PEOPLE WHOM THEY KNOW. Not strangers whom they meet in bars.