High profiles murders in the U.S: what is going on?

jambo

slip inside my schlafsack
It's a potential hazard to drive a car. Should no one drive one?
It's a choice isn't it, surely? But like I say, I'm asking about this idea of 'altering one's life'. What does it mean? You make choices, when you drive a car you probably choose to do it conscientiously. Is what it really means a refusal to be ruled by fears? Fears which may not even be well founded in this case perhaps.
Women being drunk does not *cause* rape.
Yes, that is what I just said, I wanted to make it very clear so there was no room for misunderstanding.
What do you mean "is it a significant factor"? In what? The fact that rapists exist?
No I mean I understood you to be saying that you think women are not significantly more likely to be raped when/because they are drunk. Which is fair enough and would mean that much of this is by-the-by even from a simplistic pragmatic point of view.

x-post
 
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Let's turn your little hypothesis around, guys:

Maybe men should stay home and keep sober, because severe drunkeness and the temptation of passed out women in bars might lead them to rape.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
No I mean I understood you to be saying that you think women are not significantly more likely to be raped when/because they are drunk. Which is fair enough and would mean that much of this is by-the-by even from a simplistic pragmatic point of view.

Statistically, women are not "more likely" to be raped when or because they are drunk. Women are statistically more likely to be raped by a friend/family member when they are stone cold sober.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
http://endabuse.org/resources/facts/

Rape

  • Three in four women (76 percent) who reported they had been raped and/or physically assaulted since age 18 said that a current or former husband, cohabiting partner, or date committed the assault.31
  • One in five (21 percent) women reported she had been raped or physically or sexually assaulted in her lifetime.32
  • Nearly one-fifth of women (18 percent) reported experiencing a completed or attempted rape at some time in their lives; one in 33 men (three percent) reported experiencing a completed or attempted rape at some time in their lives.33
  • In 2000, 48 percent of the rapes/sexual assaults committed against people age 12 and over were reported to the police.34 In 2001, 41,740 women were victims of rape/sexual assault committed by an intimate partner.35
  • Rapes/sexual assaults committed by strangers are more likely to be reported to the police than rapes/sexual assaults committed by “nonstrangers,” including intimate partners, other relatives and friends or acquaintances.
  • Between 1992 and 2000, 41 percent of the rapes/sexual assaults committed by strangers were reported to the police. During the same time period, 24 percent of the rapes/sexual assaults committed by an intimate were reported.36
 
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Shonx

Shallow House
Men don't understand that rapists don't get off on sex, they get off on violence.

Have you asked a rapist this?

I think this line has been put across since at least the 70's and I don't think it's totally true in all honesty. Not denying the obvious violence but to say there's no sexual element involved in someone...erm...having sex is ridiculous. If it was purely about violence, the additional physical effort involved in having to silence someone, hold them down and have sex with them whilst doing so would seem superfluous (it is of course quite possible that the threat of violence might be enough to quash any resistance but then that would still have the level of control).

I think what we're really looking at is a form of sexuality that has strong violence and dominance characteristics, where the symbiosis of the two is what causes the "getting off" - the violence is central to the sexual fantasy. People assuming that it's only about violence are missing the point, it is sexual sadism.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Rape is not "sex", sex is a consensual act between two people. Rape by definition is a nonconsensual act. It's important to parse these terms.

There is a sexual component to rape in the completely ill thinking of the rapist, but that does not mean that "rape" and "sex" are the same act.

There are plenty of violence fetishists who practice their sexuality in completely safe, consensual ways (many in the BDSM community). These people are not rapists. Rapists don't want to simply act out a consensual violence fetish, you're right--they want to act out a nonconsensual one. Of course, many rapists delude themselves and justify what they've done, usually with lines just like the ones we've seen in this thread, such as:

"if she didn't want to have sex, she wouldn't have worn that"
"she flirted with me and she's really drunk, that means she's horny and wants me"
"it's ok to have sex with someone who's passed out--she should've known better"

I'd go on but it makes me want to vomit.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
And yes, many people have "asked rapists this." There are reams and reams of literature on the subject and just as many words devoted to diagnostic criteria for sexual predators.

Most rapists harbored fantasies about committing violent acts against women even before puberty. This doesn't mean it's an entirely "pre-sexual" proclivity, just that it develops young and strong before adult gender norms are even imposed.
 

swears

preppy-kei
Let's turn your little hypothesis around, guys:

Maybe men should stay home and keep sober, because severe drunkeness and the temptation of passed out women in bars might lead them to rape.

Of course. But you're not going to be able to tell criminals "Hey, don't break the law, it's bad. That's why we have those laws, guys!" It's a lot easier to give advice to people who want to avoid becoming victims in the first place.
 

Shonx

Shallow House
Rape is not "sex", sex is a consensual act between two people. Rape by definition is a nonconsensual act. It's important to parse these terms.

There is nothing to state that the term "sex" denotes consent. This is presumably why people are asked if sexual intercourse was consensual or non-consensual - it is still sex. It is a particularly twisted distortion of sex admittedly. Masturbation is a form of sex, no other person required.

There are plenty of violence fetishists who practice their sexuality in completely safe, consensual ways (many in the BDSM community). These people are not rapists. Rapists don't want to simply act out a consensual violence fetish, you're right--they want to act out a nonconsensual one.

Well at least we agree on one thing ;)

I think the key aspect is not based on permission, within BDSM the submission is seen as a gift to the dominator and is treated respectfully (well as respectfully as BDSM gets anyway) - I think in the mind of rapists and murderers, being given permission kind of defeats the object which is (for want of a better term) full spectrum domination, an urge so great that just killing often isn't enough and further mutilation and/or desecration needs to take place after death.

I think there may be the aspect of violence beforehand, but it's when this is mixed with a sexual element that is the trigger point. If it was just about killing, they'd just kill.
 

Shonx

Shallow House
Of course. But you're not going to be able to tell criminals "Hey, don't break the law, it's bad. That's why we have those laws, guys!" It's a lot easier to give advice to people who want to avoid becoming victims in the first place.

(criminal slaps forehead) "you should have said, I was wondering why I kept getting funny looks for helping myself to car stereos"
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Have you asked a rapist this?

I think this line has been put across since at least the 70's and I don't think it's totally true in all honesty.

A woman I know from another messageboard, who had been raped herself as a teenager, disagreed with it. And as you point out, if it were 'just' about violence, why not just beat someone up?
 

jambo

slip inside my schlafsack
We need to stop acting as if women can somehow do something that will cause them to get raped. No one can do anything that *causes* them to get raped, rapists cause rape. The intention of the rapist to commit rape causes rape. Drunkenness does not *cause* rape. If you think you can't possibly drink without getting raped (or beaten up, or whatever), don't drink. But don't project your fears onto everyone.
I think the idea of *cause* was only mentioned on this thread in the context of totally negating the notion, or otherwise merely in the sense of meaning 'a factor in contributing to the statistical likelihood'. Clearly no one actually means a person's behaviour can *cause* them to be attacked.

Maybe this idea is still out there in 'society', the stereotype of ageing sexist male judges?, but I think to many it sounds like the most horrendously prehistoric attitude. I'm sure you'll correct me, maybe there are statistics.

No one can do anything that *causes* them to get arrested. Getting caught with a kilo of pot is not the *cause* of being arrested. The intention of the police officer to arrest causes arrest. But you should be able to have as much pot as you like.

Wrestling tigers does not *cause* getting eaten. It is the intention of annoyed tigers to eat you that causes getting eating. If you think you can wrestle tigers without getting eaten go ahead but don't project your bloody minded foolhardiness onto others. ;)

(not analogies, just for amusement)
I don't live in fear. I'll avoid being alone with strangers until I die.
So, pragmatism then? Isn't that essentially what people here were advocating?
 

Shonx

Shallow House
Seems from a bit of research that -

Rapes involving power are generally those associated with spouses or partner abuse, but generally don't have a high level of violence, as power is the principle motivation

Rapes of anger often don't even end in ejaculation but violence is much higher

Date rapes are mostly sexually motivated and have little or no basis in power and violence is minimal if not non-existent

Sadistic rapes generally involve sexual gratification that includes pleasure derived from the victim's suffering and often end in the victim's death. The perpetrators are generally psychologically disturbed (no shit Sherlock)

It's interesting how feminist writers on rape point out that men raping men in prison is seen as about power rather than sex too, being that it's done by heterosexuals and everything. Nothing to do with homosexual denial then I guess.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Of course. But you're not going to be able to tell criminals "Hey, don't break the law, it's bad. That's why we have those laws, guys!" It's a lot easier to give advice to people who want to avoid becoming victims in the first place.

Then why not give women "advice" not to know any men, or have a father, brother, or boyfriend?

Statistically that's the single most important factor in a woman's rape, after all.

Rapists are more likely statistically than their victims to be drunk, yet you never see any public service announcements urging men to STAY AT HOME, DON'T DRINK because if they do they're far more likely to commit a sex crime.

Once again, our culture of victim blaming has emerged with ANOTHER "blame the victim" tactic JUST AS STUPID as "but she wore a tight dress once four years ago" and "she's had sex before so she must like sex" in the form of "women who drink too much just make themselves targets."

It's always easier for men to try to come up with ways to blame women for not guarding and locking their pussy than it is for them to realize that victim blaming is WHAT RAPISTS USE TO JUSTIFY RAPE.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
It's interesting how feminist writers on rape point out that men raping men in prison is seen as about power rather than sex too, being that it's done by heterosexuals and everything. Nothing to do with homosexual denial then I guess.

That's very strange: why would a woman, especially a feminist, feel the need to deny that straight people often 'turn gay' when denied access to the opposite sex for long periods of time? Not all sex that goes on in prison is rape: lots of nominally 'straight' prisoners serving long terms form consensual relationships. I'm sure much the same thing happens in women's prisons too. Then you've got single-sex boarding schools, the Navy of course...
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
I think the key aspect is not based on permission, within BDSM the submission is seen as a gift to the dominator and is treated respectfully (well as respectfully as BDSM gets anyway) - I think in the mind of rapists and murderers, being given permission kind of defeats the object which is (for want of a better term) full spectrum domination, an urge so great that just killing often isn't enough and further mutilation and/or desecration needs to take place after death.

I think there may be the aspect of violence beforehand, but it's when this is mixed with a sexual element that is the trigger point. If it was just about killing, they'd just kill.

Nobody said it was "just about killing." Rapists are often non-violent *technically* (they don't end up punching or beating the victim), but the very act of rape whether a beating ensues or not is a violent act. It violates a person's personal space. If someone shoved a dildo up your ass without asking you, you'd probably say it was a pretty violent act, whether they beat you up or not.

I'm a bisexual lifestyle switch, and it's not "seen as a gift" in BDSM, it's central to the entire practice of BDSM. Sometimes bottoms or "subs" enact violence too, it has nothing really to do with "dominance", but with the ritual administration of pain/bonds. Most subs will do anything to get hurt, yeah, but BDSM is not about "dominance" the way heterosexuals think of this term.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
That's very strange: why would a woman, especially a feminist, feel the need to deny that straight people often 'turn gay' when denied access to the opposite sex for long periods of time? Not all sex that goes on in prison is rape: lots of nominally 'straight' prisoners serving long terms form consensual relationships. I'm sure much the same thing happens in women's prisons too. Then you've got single-sex boarding schools, the Navy of course...

Um, no feminist says that men don't have consensual sex in jail. Shonx is talking about feminists who talk about rape in jail, period. This is startlingly common.

And just exactly how does having sex with men because you're in prison "turn you gay"? Gay is an orientation, not a few stray experiments.

Jesus is it really so hard to keep these terms and ideas straight and separate?
 
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