Reynolds hardcore continuum event

whatever

Well-known member
has he been trying to pass himself off as some kind of authority on grime tho?
um, earth to padraig, YES !!! for a good long while on his blog ... but this is sorta the dirty secret that mos dan won't come out n say cos he's polite : SR's sudden emotional disgust & disappointment & superior judgment against & spite for & etcetera towards grime just so happened magically to coincide with the appearance of other journalists who knew the scene much better and had much more to say than he did - this is the hallmark of the guy's career as a writer , as soon as he is no longer at the vanguard of the peeple talking about , he scoots .

which is fine , i understand the feeling & it doesn't have necesssarily to be taken in the cynical way i state . but pleeeeease, if you pretend to be a "critic" , do NOT confuse your own lack of expertise/lack of new ideas/lack of engagement/boredom/ with the health of the community making it , that kind of interpretive shit is foul

TRUE STORY THO wot i say above , no ? no ? no ?
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
The better question is can I think of any music made in the U.S. that *wasn't* a "mongrelisation" of the genres that kpunk mentions in the article. It's hard to think of any.

really? you know of a music made in the U.S. that took breakbeats from hip hop & sped them up, nicked & twisted the diva vocals from soul & house, got ragga MCing from dancehall (the British fast chat version at that), the dread bass from dub & mashed them all up together? what is this wonderful music & where could I find some of it? I don't think it actually exists but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

it's also besides the point but I could think of plenty of American music that has naught to do with hip hop, dancehall or techno. the entirety of indie rock for one, plus modern folk a la Sufjan Stevens or whoever, plus metal - really any genre of music dominated by white ppl.

all the business about theory & Deleuze & rhizomes, whatever for me (tho you're free to attack it of course) but I mean this is about sonics. no offense at all, do you actually listen to any ardkore or jungle or 2step? cause that's the "continuum" right there if you want to call it that or call it a different name or not call it anything at all.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
um, earth to padraig, YES !!! for a good long while on his blog ... but this is sorta the dirty secret that mos dan won't come out n say cos he's polite : SR's sudden emotional disgust & disappointment & superior judgment against & spite for & etcetera towards grime just so happened magically to coincide with the appearance of other journalists who knew the scene much better and had much more to say than he did - this is the hallmark of the guy's career as a writer , as soon as he is no longer at the vanguard of the peeple talking about , he scoots .

which is fine , i understand the feeling & it doesn't have necesssarily to be taken in the cynical way i state . but pleeeeease, if you pretend to be a "critic" , do NOT confuse your own lack of expertise/lack of new ideas/lack of engagement/boredom/ with the health of the community making it , that kind of interpretive shit is foul

TRUE STORY THO wot i say above , no ? no ? no ?

I didn't say he never talked about it, I said pass himself off as an authority. can you point to an example? perhaps even more than one?

the rest of your assertions, yeah, whatever:rolleyes:.
 

whatever

Well-known member
the rest of your assertions, yeah, whatever:rolleyes:.
dat's my name! :p

no srsly by all means feeel free 2 disagree w me , that is what we are here for , if i go to far i will stand corrected , i am reasonable , rlly i am :D it's all in good fun & threadz sell books for thse guys so no one is complaining i said so many times already that i like SR , surely someone to challenge the logic behind a few orthodoxies ain't soch a bad thing .
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
dat's my name! :p

no srsly by all means feeel free 2 disagree w me , that is what we are here for , if i go to far i will stand corrected , i am reasonable , rlly i am :D it's all in good fun & threadz sell books for thse guys so no one is complaining i said so many times already that i like SR , surely someone to challenge the logic behind a few orthodoxies ain't soch a bad thing .

nah it's of course all well & good, healthier even, to challenge ideas & the logic behind them, I don't object to that (tho really "orthodoxy" - I mean really let's put this all in perspective) - attacking someone as a bandwagon jumper is another thing.

people perhaps forget or don't know why he felt compelled to champion this music in the first place. this, from 1996, 3 yrs before any the first "nuum" mention, in reference to "Bug In the Bassbin" being played at 45:

"It's one of those myths cultivated by A/ drum and bass producers grasping for a supposedly more elevated ancestry for what they do, and B/ johnny-come-lately technoheads and breakbeat-niks like James Lavelle (i.e. people who would never have gone within sneering distance of Rage), for whom the idea that Carl Craig and Black Dog devised the blueprint for drum and bass is reassuring. It allows them to avoid the truth: the real inventors of jungle were oufits like 2 Bad Mice/Kaotic Chemistry("Waremouse", "Bombscare", "Drum Trip II"), Noise Factory and the rest of the Ibiza/Third Party crew, Urban Shakedown, the Suburban Bass acts (Krome & Time/Q-Bass/Hype/Sonz of A Loop Da Loop Era,etc), DJ SS and the Formation crews, Shut Up and Dance, hell, even The Prodigy. These people, utterly ignored and marginalised, invented the future. Rave producers, in other words; 'ardkore, in all its pilled-up, made-in-two-minutes, spotty teenager, Amiga-in-the-bedroom glory. Belgium had more to do with jungle than Detroit, ferchrissakes."

(also explains some of the irrational Detroit hatred doesn't it?)
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
you're perhaps misreading this - the point isn't that mongrelisation & innovation weren't taking place or that they weren't possible but that the particular mongrelisations & innovations of ardkore were tied to a place/time that couldn't be replicated elsewhere. though I might also point out that some these innovations were in fact not thought of by anyone else before they come out ardkore & jungle.

who's overemphasizing the power of music writing? aren't all the ppl attacking SR & the HCC actually imbuing his work with a much greater importance than he himself?

No, I'm not, I'm disagreeing with it.

Look, the idea that there are isolated "continua" of music that created all electronic innovation out of nothing, a la some sort of musical Big Bang theory [even if we were to drop the kind of rigid idea of musical progress as a continuum, which in physics is not the sort of thing that takes in influences (or energy) from everywhere and makes them its own, but is instead a sort of relation between spatial and time elements that changes state in a continuous manner, without interruptions, flowings outward, or flowings inward] just doesn't make that much sense to me in the particulars. In a very, exceptionally broad way, you might say that all musics as they can be parsed into genres form a series of somehow connected "continua", and I'd say maybe but beyond that sort of broad, universal level, if you go from major strains of music to genres to subgenres, ignoring the way they've all crosspollinated and built on one another historically and technologically--this view just loses metaphorical coherence. And I'm not the one who chose the "continuum" metaphor, Mr. Reynolds did.

I don't mind if people want to think of jungle and its little branchings off as some sort of distinctly British music. That makes all kinds of sense. That sort of music was never very popular in the U.S. But to try to claim that a sort of music that's cobbled together out of drum-machine sequences, samples, and tiny chopped-and-mashed synth loops is somehow wildly innovative in a way that no one else had thought of before--well, that reeks of overstatement. To add on to this that "underground" musics have some sort of privileged metaphysical status where they can avoid the mediation of markets and global cultural contributions and actually redeem humankind from capitalism...well, no offense, but that just seems dumb.

Enthusiasm for music is great, but one's personal enthusiasm for whatever one might be enthusiastic about doesn't somehow prove that one's metaphors are more coherent than anyone else's, nor does it make one a "better", more "engaged" listener than anyone else, nor does it make the music one listens to some sort of isolated flash of brilliance that would've existed independently of an entire tradition and history of formal musical and technological innovation.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that someone claiming that a cultural theory like a "hardcore continuum" is the same thing as a fact like jupiter (hence ignoring mediation altogether) is an entirely uncontroversial statement? It's laughably so.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
all the business about theory & Deleuze & rhizomes, whatever for me (tho you're free to attack it of course) but I mean this is about sonics. no offense at all, do you actually listen to any ardkore or jungle or 2step? cause that's the "continuum" right there if you want to call it that or call it a different name or not call it anything at all.

If it's "whatever" for you, why do you continue to respond to posts that are about exactly that as if you understand what's being said, when it's clear that you don't?

And no, I don't listen to jungle, hardcore, or much of anything like that. It sounds ok. I like the bass-heaviness of it, but beyond that, it bores me to tears, the beats are like fingernails on a chalkboard to me, and I don't think it's at all "innovative" in a way that Detroit techno or any or digitally produced and mastered musics weren't before it.

To my liking, making "sound salad" with a bunch of samples is not the be-all, end-all of human musical expression. Funny, though, that anyone who dares feel this way is accused of being erroneously eclectic in their tastes.
 
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padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
If it's "whatever" for you, why do you continue to respond to posts that are about exactly that as if you understand what's being said, when it's clear that you don't?

I guess cos I'm too stupid & not well-read enough to know when to stop. mainly cos you're talking about it in an abstract sense that has fuck all to do with how anything actually sounds. which, again whatever.

And no, I don't listen to jungle, hardcore, or much of anything like that. It sounds ok. I like the bass-heaviness of it, but beyond that, it bores me to tears, the beats are like fingernails on a chalkboard to me, and I don't think it's at all "innovative" in a way that Detroit techno or any or digitally produced and mastered musics weren't before it.To my liking, making "sound salad" with a bunch of samples is not the be-all, end-all of human musical expression. Funny, though, that anyone who dares feel this way is accused of being erroneously eclectic in their tastes.

alright then, glad that's clear. as you would argue that I have no business arguing about the theory side of it I'd argue that you don't have much business on the sonics end. if you don't like it that's one thing - perfectly fine of course, matter of taste - but if you can't hear the innovations (not that nuum music has a monopoly on innovations, just several of it's own unique ones) then there's not much else to say.

& no one's accusing you of being "erroneously ecletic" (nice touch of alliteration there). or at least I'm not.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
anyway the main thrust was that it stopped being interesting to him when the desire to go mainstream on its own terms faded.

yeah, because only "underground" [i.e. music that is feeding off the machine but hasn't yet been fed back into the machine] is really good music. if it stops being "underground" its merit flies right out the window, technical, "innovative", and all.

the fewer fans something has, the better. also did I mention that I am a 15-year-old boy and know nothing about music theory, composition, or engineering so my mind gets blown by every new sequenced drum beat I hear?
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
I guess cos I'm too stupid & not well-read enough to know when to stop. mainly cos you're talking about it in an abstract sense that has fuck all to do with how anything actually sounds. which, again whatever.

I'm not just talking about it in an abstract sense, and even if I were, there is nothing, I repeat, nothing "concrete" in terms of music theory about calling something a "continuum."

If you want I can gladly write out some jungle songs for you on paper so you can actually see that technically, and not-abstractly, there is very little about jungle that is innovative.

Saying you're talking about "sonics" is not some sort of trump card that somehow sidesteps you out of abstract territory. In fact, it buries you deeper in.

alright then, glad that's clear. as you would argue that I have no business arguing about the theory side of it I'd argue that you don't have much business on the sonics end. if you don't like it that's one thing - perfectly fine of course, matter of taste - but if you can't hear the innovations (not that nuum music has a monopoly on innovations, just several of it's own unique ones) then there's not much else to say.

& no one's accusing you of being "erroneously ecletic" (nice touch of alliteration there). or at least I'm not.

What exactly do you mean by "sonics" here? Because I can literally, on hearing a song, turn it into sheet music for you within a few minutes. I know what key it's in, what time signature, how many measures in the song, etc. That is what's called the "technical" aspects. Simply not liking jungle and its "continuum" doesn't mean that I don't know about what constitute the 'sonics' of jungle.

LIKE I SAID BEFORE, I was responding to Kpunk's article in FACT and SR's FACT TV presentation. Not you.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
yeah, because only "underground" [i.e. music that is feeding off the machine but hasn't yet been fed back into the machine] is really good music. if it stops being "underground" its merit flies right out the window, technical, "innovative", and all.

no one said this, no one (at least the people we're talking about here) thinks this, it would be a ridiculous position to take which is why no one takes it. clearly you haven't read any of the slobbering paens SR wrote to Timabaland & Missy E back in the late 90s-early 00s back when Tim was at the peak of his lofty powers (making aboveground pop music if there was any). plus the whole point was that he wanted grime to achieve mainstream success & to smash the pop charts.

...also did I mention that I am a 15-year-old boy and know nothing about music theory, composition, or engineering so my mind gets blown by every new sequenced drum beat I hear?

If you want I can gladly write out some jungle songs for you on paper so you can actually see that technically, and not-abstractly, there is very little about jungle that is innovative...

...What exactly do you mean by "sonics" here? Because I can literally, on hearing a song, turn it into sheet music for you within a few minutes. I know what key it's in, what time signature, how many measures in the song, etc. That is what's called the "technical" aspects. Simply not liking jungle and its "continuum" doesn't mean that I don't know about what constitute the 'sonics' of jungle.

the notion that your opinion, informed by your vast knowledge of composition & theory & engineering, is more valid than that of a "15 yr old boy who knows nothing" is just ludicrous elitist shite, come on now.

meanwhile I'll thank you not to talk to me such condescending terms - I'm a drummer, I'm well aware of what the "technical" side of music is, if not such a theoretical genius as yourself.

no thanks on that writeup - I've no doubt you could write up every snare hit & every note of the bassline but you'd still be a thousand miles off. if you think innovation can only take place in terms that can be expressed in time signatures & keys then we very different ideas of what "innovation" is. especially for electronic music & doubly especially for ardkore & jungle & garage which are engineers' music (though the proper musicians sneak in sometimes as well).

in the sonics I mean the elements that move from music to music - I'm sorry to belabor this as they've been listed a thousand times - sped up chopped edited & processed breakbeats, the various endless permutations of bass heaviness, the use & recontextualization of diva vocals, ditto for ragga chanting, etc. though none of these things alone - fusing all these into something greater than the sum of its parts is a major part of the innovation.

listen as I said before if you know of another music that did this stuff first then lay it on me, I'd love to hear it.

*EDIT* - I just realized, I should ask - what exactly would you define "innovation" as? or perhaps more accurately, what would you consider to be "innovative music"?
 
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Benny Bunter

Well-known member
If you want I can gladly write out some jungle songs for you on paper so you can actually see that technically, and not-abstractly, there is very little about jungle that is innovative.

.

Go on then, have a go at this one...

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john eden

male pale and stale
Are you seriously trying to tell me that someone claiming that a cultural theory like a "hardcore continuum" is the same thing as a fact like jupiter (hence ignoring mediation altogether) is an entirely uncontroversial statement?

Yeah I winced when reynolds came out with that "fact" thing in the video.

More generally I think it would be interesting to see how the 'nuum holds up against more formal music theorising - not least because it seems blatantly obvious that it has been lashed together by fans and music journalists rather than musicologists (which is a good thing to my mind).
 

mos dan

fact music
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