zhao

there are no accidents
That is NOT what you said before and you KNOW it isn't.

that is of course what i have always said - never had any thoughts to the contrary: band level societies are gatherer/hunters. of course! what else would they be???

The idea that because there's one tribe that is band-level that exists, that all tribes that ever existed were band-level, is patently absurd! Without hearing the lecture I can deducify that.

perhaps you are using different definitions, but according to what i thought was commonly accepted: bands and tribes are terms designated to different forms of social organization, one preceding the other (band followed by tribe), with the former being the dominant form for most of human history. thus you can not have a "tribe" that is also a "band". again, without reviewing the information i present, you misunderstand and confuse my statements.

Or you can misinterpret and add a bunch of shit onto a lecture you heard once and pretend that's what the lecturer said because you like how it sounds.

this is completely unfounded and fictional.

it looks like you are still very much approaching this "discussion" in the spirit of combativeness, competition, and a refusal to acknowledge the validity of other view points.

thus i seriously doubt listening to the lecture, which summarizes decades of anthropological data from numerous scientists, will make you realize that there are more than one valid version of the story of our ancestors; nor will it change anything in regards to your "i'm right, you are full of shit" attitude.

i predict you will do some or all of the following:

• attempt to discredit Professor Edward F. Fischer even though he is a reputable scholar
• attempt to dismiss the academic sources he cites as "hacks"
• ignore the major points of the lecture which all support my position
• focus on minor discrepancies, real or fabricated, in order to prove that it's all bullshit
• continue to falsify and misconstrue my past statements, fictionalize and polarize my position, put words in my mouth.
• and if everything else fails, say something like "who cares anyway? it's not important" and casually walk away from it all.

sincerely hope i am wrong about how you will proceed, but seriously doubt it.
 
Last edited:

vimothy

yurp
Just to play devil's advocate, here is Pinker's essay on the decline of violence, in ultra-right wing Zionist hate-mag, TNR:

In sixteenth-century Paris, a popular form of entertainment was cat-burning, in which a cat was hoisted in a sling on a stage and slowly lowered into a fire. According to historian Norman Davies, "[T]he spectators, including kings and queens, shrieked with laughter as the animals, howling with pain, were singed, roasted, and finally carbonized." Today, such sadism would be unthinkable in most of the world. This change in sensibilities is just one example of perhaps the most important and most underappreciated trend in the human saga: Violence has been in decline over long stretches of history, and today we are probably living in the most peaceful moment of our species' time on earth.

In the decade of Darfur and Iraq, and shortly after the century of Stalin, Hitler, and Mao, the claim that violence has been diminishing may seem somewhere between hallucinatory and obscene. Yet recent studies that seek to quantify the historical ebb and flow of violence point to exactly that conclusion.

Some of the evidence has been under our nose all along. Conventional history has long shown that, in many ways, we have been getting kinder and gentler. Cruelty as entertainment, human sacrifice to indulge superstition, slavery as a labor-saving device, conquest as the mission statement of government, genocide as a means of acquiring real estate, torture and mutilation as routine punishment, the death penalty for misdemeanors and differences of opinion, assassination as the mechanism of political succession, rape as the spoils of war, pogroms as outlets for frustration, homicide as the major form of conflict resolution--all were unexceptionable features of life for most of human history. But, today, they are rare to nonexistent in the West, far less common elsewhere than they used to be, concealed when they do occur, and widely condemned when they are brought to light.

At one time, these facts were widely appreciated. They were the source of notions like progress, civilization, and man's rise from savagery and barbarism. Recently, however, those ideas have come to sound corny, even dangerous. They seem to demonize people in other times and places, license colonial conquest and other foreign adventures, and conceal the crimes of our own societies. The doctrine of the noble savage--the idea that humans are peaceable by nature and corrupted by modern institutions--pops up frequently in the writing of public intellectuals like José Ortega y Gasset ("War is not an instinct but an invention"), Stephen Jay Gould ("Homo sapiens is not an evil or destructive species"), and Ashley Montagu ("Biological studies lend support to the ethic of universal brotherhood"). But, now that social scientists have started to count bodies in different historical periods, they have discovered that the romantic theory gets it backward: Far from causing us to become more violent, something in modernity and its cultural institutions has made us nobler.

To be sure, any attempt to document changes in violence must be soaked in uncertainty. In much of the world, the distant past was a tree falling in the forest with no one to hear it, and, even for events in the historical record, statistics are spotty until recent periods. Long-term trends can be discerned only by smoothing out zigzags and spikes of horrific bloodletting. And the choice to focus on relative rather than absolute numbers brings up the moral imponderable of whether it is worse for 50 percent of a population of 100 to be killed or 1 percent in a population of one billion.

Yet, despite these caveats, a picture is taking shape. The decline of violence is a fractal phenomenon, visible at the scale of millennia, centuries, decades, and years. It applies over several orders of magnitude of violence, from genocide to war to rioting to homicide to the treatment of children and animals. And it appears to be a worldwide trend, though not a homogeneous one. The leading edge has been in Western societies, especially England and Holland, and there seems to have been a tipping point at the onset of the Age of Reason in the early seventeenth century.

At the widest-angle view, one can see a whopping difference across the millennia that separate us from our pre-state ancestors. Contra leftist anthropologists who celebrate the noble savage, quantitative body-counts--such as the proportion of prehistoric skeletons with axemarks and embedded arrowheads or the proportion of men in a contemporary foraging tribe who die at the hands of other men--suggest that pre-state societies were far more violent than our own. It is true that raids and battles killed a tiny percentage of the numbers that die in modern warfare. But, in tribal violence, the clashes are more frequent, the percentage of men in the population who fight is greater, and the rates of death per battle are higher. According to anthropologists like Lawrence Keeley, Stephen LeBlanc, Phillip Walker, and Bruce Knauft, these factors combine to yield population-wide rates of death in tribal warfare that dwarf those of modern times. If the wars of the twentieth century had killed the same proportion of the population that die in the wars of a typical tribal society, there would have been two billion deaths, not 100 million.

Political correctness from the other end of the ideological spectrum has also distorted many people's conception of violence in early civilizations--namely, those featured in the Bible. This supposed source of moral values contains many celebrations of genocide, in which the Hebrews, egged on by God, slaughter every last resident of an invaded city. The Bible also prescribes death by stoning as the penalty for a long list of nonviolent infractions, including idolatry, blasphemy, homosexuality, adultery, disrespecting one's parents, and picking up sticks on the Sabbath. The Hebrews, of course, were no more murderous than other tribes; one also finds frequent boasts of torture and genocide in the early histories of the Hindus, Christians, Muslims, and Chinese.

At the century scale, it is hard to find quantitative studies of deaths in warfare spanning medieval and modern times. Several historians have suggested that there has been an increase in the number of recorded wars across the centuries to the present, but, as political scientist James Payne has noted, this may show only that "the Associated Press is a more comprehensive source of information about battles around the world than were sixteenth-century monks." Social histories of the West provide evidence of numerous barbaric practices that became obsolete in the last five centuries, such as slavery, amputation, blinding, branding, flaying, disembowelment, burning at the stake, breaking on the wheel, and so on. Meanwhile, for another kind of violence--homicide--the data are abundant and striking. The criminologist Manuel Eisner has assembled hundreds of homicide estimates from Western European localities that kept records at some point between 1200 and the mid-1990s. In every country he analyzed, murder rates declined steeply--for example, from 24 homicides per 100,000 Englishmen in the fourteenth century to 0.6 per 100,000 by the early 1960s.

On the scale of decades, comprehensive data again paint a shockingly happy picture: Global violence has fallen steadily since the middle of the twentieth century. According to the Human Security Brief 2006, the number of battle deaths in interstate wars has declined from more than 65,000 per year in the 1950s to less than 2,000 per year in this decade. In Western Europe and the Americas, the second half of the century saw a steep decline in the number of wars, military coups, and deadly ethnic riots.

Zooming in by a further power of ten exposes yet another reduction. After the cold
war, every part of the world saw a steep drop-off in state-based conflicts, and those that do occur are more likely to end in negotiated settlements rather than being fought to the bitter end. Meanwhile, according to political scientist Barbara Harff, between 1989 and 2005 the number of campaigns of mass killing of civilians decreased by 90 percent.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
The decline of violence is a fractal phenomenon, visible at the scale of millennia, centuries, decades, and years.

in tribal violence, the clashes are more frequent, the percentage of men in the population who fight is greater, and the rates of death per battle are higher. According to anthropologists like Lawrence Keeley, Stephen LeBlanc, Phillip Walker, and Bruce Knauft, these factors combine to yield population-wide rates of death in tribal warfare that dwarf those of modern times.

i would tend to agree with this kind of assessment. and it does not contradict my position. however articles like this one make a big mistake in terms of time-line.

it is a common mistake when it comes to pre-history. surely there are more than one model, but according to the one i go by, all of the above is SUBSEQUENT to the rise of centralized power/hierarchy/language/civilization -- and the relative peaceful period of pre-tribal, band-level societies existed before all of this, for millions of years.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
So maybe we are gradually but definitely inching back to square one -- and it's not all hopeless?

of course it's not hopeless... contrary to what the powers would have us believe.

(although we might see an escalation of violence on massive scales in the immediate future)
 
To digress, here's some pretentious crap:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value=""></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Ok, so when it's demonstrated that Fischer himself believes the Dobe are a HUNTER-GATHERER not a "gatherer-hunter" society, Zhao retreats into a bunch of non-points about nothing that are some strained attempt to make me seem unwilling to discuss points when that's in fact all I have been doing on this topic here.

It's like talking to a brick wall of stupid.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
that is of course what i have always said - never had any thoughts to the contrary: band level societies are gatherer/hunters. of course! what else would they be???



perhaps you are using different definitions, but according to what i thought was commonly accepted: bands and tribes are terms designated to different forms of social organization, one preceding the other (band followed by tribe), with the former being the dominant form for most of human history. thus you can not have a "tribe" that is also a "band". again, without reviewing the information i present, you misunderstand and confuse my statements.



this is completely unfounded and fictional.

it looks like you are still very much approaching this "discussion" in the spirit of combativeness, competition, and a refusal to acknowledge the validity of other view points.

thus i seriously doubt listening to the lecture, which summarizes decades of anthropological data from numerous scientists, will make you realize that there are more than one valid version of the story of our ancestors; nor will it change anything in regards to your "i'm right, you are full of shit" attitude.

i predict you will do some or all of the following:

• attempt to discredit Professor Edward F. Fischer even though he is a reputable scholar
• attempt to dismiss the academic sources he cites as "hacks"
• ignore the major points of the lecture which all support my position
• focus on minor discrepancies, real or fabricated, in order to prove that it's all bullshit
• continue to falsify and misconstrue my past statements, fictionalize and polarize my position, put words in my mouth.
• and if everything else fails, say something like "who cares anyway? it's not important" and casually walk away from it all.

sincerely hope i am wrong about how you will proceed, but seriously doubt it.


NO that is NOT what you said. You said that "band-level societies were the primary form of social organization throughout human evolution" about 20 times over and over. This is not true. Then when I told you that band-level societies could also be hunter-gatherers, you said, NO because band-level societies are "pre-hieararchy" and existed BEFORE people lived in hierarchical societies.

Band-level societies are tribal societies, just ones that organize in a slightly different way.

I cannot find a single anthropological study online that supports this claim that band-level societies "precede" tribal societies Zhao.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
it is a common mistake when it comes to pre-history. surely there are more than one model, but according to the one i go by, all of the above is SUBSEQUENT to the rise of centralized power/hierarchy/language/civilization -- and the relative peaceful period of pre-tribal, band-level societies existed before all of this, for millions of years.

People have only existed for 150,000 years tops. At least as humans.

It is a common mistake to bullshit and totally pull things out of your ass.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
Ok, so when it's demonstrated that Fischer himself believes the Dobe are a HUNTER-GATHERER not a "gatherer-hunter" society, Zhao retreats into a bunch of non-points about nothing that are some strained attempt to make me seem unwilling to discuss points when that's in fact all I have been doing on this topic here.

It's like talking to a brick wall of stupid.

nope. the lecture clearly says "it should be Gatherer/Hunter, and NOT the other way around"

NO that is NOT what you said. You said that "band-level societies were the primary form of social organization throughout human evolution" about 20 times over and over. This is not true. Then when I told you that band-level societies could also be hunter-gatherers, you said, NO because band-level societies are "pre-hieararchy" and existed BEFORE people lived in hierarchical societies.

Band-level societies are tribal societies, just ones that organize in a slightly different way.

I cannot find a single anthropological study online that supports this claim that band-level societies "precede" tribal societies Zhao.

i'm sorry you have misunderstood what i have been saying.

Band level Gatherer/Hunters is dominant form for most of human society.

Tribes, with heirarchy and some agriculture, came later.

this is what i have been saying for the past 5 years or so.

you can not find any studies... so you still refuse to listen to the lecture. nice one.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
I didn't "refuse" to listen to the lecture, it won't open on my computer. I have windows vista. I've extracted the file and it won't open in any program I have on my computer.

So I looked up the speaker, Edward Fischer. He is an anthropologist at Vanderbilt. HE calls the Dobe HUNTER GATHERERS. Check out his website that I linked to above.

I did not "misunderstand" you either, it was plain what you said, and now you're trying to backdown because it's obviously bullshit.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
People have only existed for 150,000 years tops. At least as humans.

It is a common mistake to bullshit and totally pull things out of your ass.

there are surely differing view points on what exactly constitutes "human being". and how much difference exists between Homo Erectus and other rough eras of earlier evolution and us.

there are scientists who believe 150,000, some who believe 2 million years. some who believe 4 million.

but the date of human origins keeps getting pushed back, and gets longer, not shorter, with each new discovery. this is certain.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
And you're STILL WRONG. Band-level societies are NOT the "primary form of social organization" by any stretch of the imagination. Band-level societies are JUST A TYPE OF TRIBAL SOCIETY.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
I did not "misunderstand" you either, it was plain what you said, and now you're trying to backdown because it's obviously bullshit.

no you have misunderstood. my position, i have been saying for about the past 5 or 6 years, since i started reading up on some of this stuff, and it has been consistent.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
there are surely differing view points on what exactly constitutes "human being". and how much difference exists between Homo Erectus and other rough eras of earlier evolution and us.

there are scientists who believe 150,000, some who believe 2 million years. some who believe 4 million.

but the date of human origins keeps getting pushed back, and gets longer, not shorter, with each new discovery. this is certain.

No, there aren't Zhao.

Ever heard of mitchondrial eve?

I have.

No one thinks that humans have been around for 2 million years as homo sapiens. ?Nobody.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
no you have misunderstood. my position, i have been saying for about the past 5 or 6 years, since i started reading up on some of this stuff, and it has been consistent.

Your "position" hasn't even been "consistent" across this thread.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
No, there aren't Zhao.

Ever heard of mitchondrial eve?

I have.

No one thinks that humans have been around for 2 million years as homo sapiens. ?Nobody.

your knowledge is limited. (as is mine. but unlike me, you are incapable of realizing it)
 

zhao

there are no accidents
you are having problems with the Zip archive? i am uploading the mp3 directly to z-share, which you should be able to listen to on the page. ready in a few....
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Originally Posted by nomadthesecond
There are plenty of tribal societies that are still considered "hunter-gatherer" today...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter-gatherer

yes. this does not detract from the fact that it is the Band Level society which has been the principle form of social organization in human history (pre-power, pre-heirarchy, pre-ritual).

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadthesecond
By far, the most efficient, best source of nutrients for our ancestors were fatty, high calorie meats. One kill could feed several people for a couple of days.

sure. but hunting was not an efficient or easy way to get food. it takes too much energy.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle631931.ece


Quote:
Until now, research on the shape of the teeth has suggested that the hominid became extinct because it was unable to adapt to environmental changes as its diet was too specialised. But analysis of four Paranthropus teeth found at Swartkrans in South Africa has shown that, far from living on tough, low-quality vegetation, the species had a varied diet.

Among the foods that it consumed were fruit and nuts, sedges, grasses, herbs, seeds, tree leaves, tubers and roots. Meat may have been eaten, although it is impossible to tell whether it was hunted or scavenged. The Anglo-American team said in its report, featured in the journal Science, that the teeth showed evidence of seasonal variety in diet. There were also variations that may reflect annual rainfall.

and that's the thing: many are of the opinion that most meat was scavenged, and that hunting became popular very late in the game.


"hunting was less important to early man than gathering"

DOES NOT EQUAL

"man did not evolve eating meat"

no. you are totally wrong. for most of human history hierarchy of any kind was absent. not matriarchal and not patriarchal.

band level society is the predominant form of human social organization.


Quote:
Originally Posted by swears
If hierarchy is evident in other pack animals like apes and wolves then why not early humans? What made them different? Not arguing, honest question....

because we evolved intelligence and realized that cooperation is better than war. especially when resources are abundant, as is proven to be the case back then.

Originally Posted by swears
Cooperation can still involve leaders, hierarchy does not automatically mean "war".

you are right. sorry to conflate heirarchy with war. what the lecture i linked to described (which people seem not want to hear and intent on having this argument anyway), is temporary authority -- a leader will emerge for a specific project, and after it's over, revert to another member of society. and there are things such as elders having more respect, etc.

what we are talking about is all degrees, no absolutes.

what i am arguing is that egalitarianism played a much greater role in early human history than what the stories we are told would have us believe.
 
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