Cooking tips and wonderful flavour combinations

slowtrain

Well-known member
Slowtrain's point about how food in Britain has been "derided as bad since well before industrialisation" is exactly what I want to examine a bit further. I'm asking whether the average English peasant say, 300 years ago, ate any worse a diet than his French counterpart. Given how notoriously poor and oppressed the working class were in France - they still had an absolute monarchy at the time, remember, while England/Britain had at least an early form of parliamentary democracy - I'd say it's unlikely, perhaps even the reverse to an extent. Which may have something to do with how horses are regarded in this country as either pets, sporting accessories or a charmingly obsolete mode of transport (oh, and tools of riot control) whereas in France they're fair game for the table.

AFAIK, France's famous Cult of Cuisine dates mainly from the 19th century and has always been centred around upmarket restaurants in Paris. Traditional French farmhouse food has always been about doing tasty, generally fairly simple things with local meat, game and fish and seasonal fruit and veg, and then you've got the traditional cheeses which are delicious as they are.

I could be talking out of my arse here but I think English rural food was probably much the same around the same time, whereas it was in the cities that convenience, longevity and low cost of food became very important during industrialisation and so low-quality, mass-produced, processed foods (Spam, Primula, custard powder etc.) came into being. Conscripts from inner city areas were notably shorter, scrawnier and generally less healthy than those from rural areas in both world wars, I seem to remember if GCSE History hasn't forsaken me entirely. In fact it was the appalling health of young men conscripted from Britain's cities that was the main impetus (or one of them, anyway) for the creation of the NHS and the welfare state as a whole, IIRC.

Yes, I imagine you are quite likely correct on this point - I imagine most of the literatrue on the subject would be devoted to the cuisine of wealthier, city-dwelling peoples (I'm thinking here of Mr. Woodhouse's praise of "water-thin gruel" as a very good thing) while the cuisine of farming peoples wouldn't really have been of much concern at all.

I think this has prompted me to find some books on the subject.

EDIT: I talked to my mum, and she reckons its coz the British never used any herbs or spices.
 
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mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
I think Mrs Beeton is good on all of this stuff.

I think the UKs diet changed from beef to cheese through industrialisation - I don't think we were big on dairy before railways.

Indigenous UK food is all bread and puddings and pies, isn't it? Wheat and barleymow and gruel and thousands of pies. Everywhere.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Nowt wrong wi' puddings an' pies, when they're done right...

Stodgy food has to be seen in the context of a country that's fairly cold for much of the year - calories and fat are necessary just to survive the winter if you're poor and can't afford to keep fires burning in every room. Easy to forget that these days when you can just whack the heating on and nibble on a rocket salad in your shirtsleeves in the middle of January.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
EDIT: I talked to my mum, and she reckons its coz the British never used any herbs or spices.

is this really true though? obviously at some point it BECAME true for a lot of people for some reasons, but I can't believe it was always thus.

eg Worcester sauce and HP sauce - WAY more complicated than many 'continental' condiments!
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
is this really true though? obviously at some point it BECAME true for a lot of people for some reasons, but I can't believe it was always thus.

eg Worcester sauce and HP sauce - WAY more complicated than many 'continental' condiments!

Excellent point! And other things that you hardly see these days - gentleman's relish, mushroom ketchup...

And English mustard! Blows the continental stuff out the water for sheer 'oomph'.

Cumberland sauce for a roast leg of gammon, omigod. Horseradish for yer beef...

That book looks awesome, btw.
 
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Slothrop

Tight but Polite
is this really true though? obviously at some point it BECAME true for a lot of people for some reasons, but I can't believe it was always thus.
Yeah, traditional british grub is heaving with cloves, saffron, allspice, mint, sage, rosemary, thyme (hell, they're even in folk songs), dill, chervil etc...

eg Worcester sauce and HP sauce - WAY more complicated than many 'continental' condiments!
Interesting point. The key thing here, though, is that pre-prepared table sauces kind of took the place of the French chef's repertoire of hollandaise, bearnaise, beurre blanc, veloute etc. Again I think this was a side effect of urbanization and industrialization.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Hmm, it'd be interesting to go back a few centuries and see what the truth was about reltavie standards of eating in Europe though, as several have said...the UK is the king of the microwave meal, that much must be admitted!

Edit: That said, what has Europe ever produced to touch Findus Crispy Pancakes?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
the French chef's repertoire of hollandaise, bearnaise, beurre blanc, veloute etc.

Funny you should mention these things - from my parents' experience of France they say that in a lot of classic haute-cuisine the emphasis is very much on flavours being subtle - but what's 'subtle' to one palate is actually just bland to another. Sure, they use garlic but other herbs and spices are not particularly in evidence. Lots of sauces based on butter, milk, flour, with maybe just a wee hint of nutmeg. Whereas a lot Mediterranean food is spicy and pungent - proper Spanish paella with seafood, paprika-laced chorizo, saffron and lemon quarters...Italian stuff like arrabiata, rich ragu, pizzas topped with anchovies, black olives, gorgonzola etc...Greek lamb dishes, all rosemary and sea salt, or lovely rich moussaka...Turkish and Cypriot food with all that chili, coriander and whatnot, rich meat stews and honey-drenched baklava...

I dunno, maybe top Parisian chefs (at least traditionally) shunned this approach as 'rustic' or 'peasant-y'? I could well believe that, actually.
 

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
Hmm, it'd be interesting to go back a few centuries and see what the truth was about reltavie standards of eating in Europe though, as several have said...the UK is the king of the microwave meal, that much must be admitted!
That said, it'd kind of be interesting to know what the relative standard of eating in the rest of Europe is now - having seen French supermarkets, there certainly seems to be more emphasis on 'proper' food, but it's kind of an English fantasy that every suburban French kitchen has a brace of pheasants hanging in the pantry and a boillabaisse on the hob...
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Oh look:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/mar/22/british-cook-better-than-french

Like any magazine survey, it's probably to be taken with a pinch of sec de celerie, but interesting stuff nonetheless... (edit - a large pinch after looking at how the actual survey was conducted...)

"Their answers revealed that 72% of the British cook at home daily, compared with 59% of the French."

What?? Bollocks. I don't cook every day and I cook more than most people. What they mean is, 72% of British middle-class foodies cook at home daily. Though if they polled a similar demographic in France then the comparison still stands, I guess. Actually, hang on, it looks like the French poll was conducted by women's fashion/lifestyle mag...

Though this certainly isn't the first time I've heard that the French, as a whole, don't cook nearly as much as they used to and perhaps cook less than we do. It's undeniable that the range of ingredients available in the UK is much larger, the French not being terribly receptive to new influences. Sweet potatoes are one of my favourite vegetables and when I was chopping some up the other day I asked my French housemate what they were called in French - she said she had no idea as she'd never seen them in France. I think there's quite a lot of things you can't get there, although obviously the quality of what you can get is generally consistently high.

Edit: haha, the comments are a predictable mix of "Yeah, SEE??" and the usual Guardianic Europhile self-hatred.
 
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Slothrop

Tight but Polite
I'd say that 'does X daily' and 'does X every day without fail' aren't the same thing...

But yeah, they didn't do much adjusting for demographics or whatever (it's basically polling the readership of a couple of magazines) so I wouldn't read too much in to the numbers, but I think it's important to remember that not everyone on the continent eats amazing fresh home cooked seasonal food all the time.

I'd be interested to see some more accurate research if anyone can dig any up...
 

slowtrain

Well-known member
I talked to my grandma about this, and she reckoned the old "british food is rubbish" idea comes from the fact that Britain is a lot colder than France etc, and they needed stodgy food to be able to survive properly.

I don't really have much time to put in any evidence for this, but I will cite the reputation of Russian and Scandinavian cuisine as a backup for this theory.
 

slowtrain

Well-known member
Oh and I was reading Woolf's 'The Years' yesterday and there was a bit where someone was complaining that children aren't taught cooking in school, and was talking about how "whats the point of having the best fowls, [and other stuff] if no-one can cook them?"
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Just had cherry compote (cherries/brown sugar/vinegar/salt) with smoked mackerel and a bit of rocket, and it lifted my spirits from this hideous British sumemr weather.

Googled, and many recommend cherry compote (inc lemon zest and juice) over goat's cheese. Must try it.
 

blacktulip

Pregnant with mandrakes
Farfalle w/ courgette, garlic & fresh mint (from the balcony) cooked in butter then partially mashed. Pecorino Romano on top.
 

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
Farfalle w/ courgette, garlic & fresh mint (from the balcony) cooked in butter then partially mashed. Pecorino Romano on top.

I used to do a kinda-that, with added peas and then one day I had a plantain and I sliced it thin and deep-fried it so it was crispy and golden brown, like plantain crisps (not soggy plantain) and crumbled it on top, and it was really, really nice, surprisingly. I'm usually wary of those 'just add a banana' type people.

Goats cheese and cranberry works really well as well.

Any good Lebanese cookbooks that aren't Ottolenghi?
 

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
Not purely lebanese, but I get a tremendous amount of mileage from this:
511Eg4IUiXL._SL500_AA240_.jpg

(I believe he's done a non-veggie one as well.)

I've probably done more recipes from this book than any other - there are loads of interesting flavour combinations and different approaches to ingredients, but it's mostly fairly simple and approachable. They're great tuesday-night type recipes, where Ottolenghi tends to be more sunday-afternoon.

I mean, with something like Ottolenghi, I flick through it and it all looks really nice, but when I actually have to decide what to cook that evening there's always some reason not to do stuff like the amount of faff involved or the difficulty of acquiring good quality goats cheese at seven in the evening in Cambridgeshire. Whereas the Arto Der Haroutunian you open at a random page and just keep finding recipes that look tasty, simple, and that you can do with stuff that you have or can easily get hold of.

I'd be tempted to add lemon and/or pinenuts to that pasta, btw.
 
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