Does it tell you they're meant to be composers?
Does it tell you they're meant to be composers?
matt b
Indexing all opinion
the question? no it doesn't (not that that makes a lot of difference tbh)
matt b
Indexing all opinion
i think it might be easier if you read what people post more carefully
mixed_biscuits
_________________________
Explain with an example pls...
(I've already made it clear how our papers don't contradict each other)
matt b
Indexing all opinion
social mobility is not high in this country:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/apr/25/socialexclusion.accesstouniversity
you can't measure intelligence.
that paper is full of qualifications and half made statements
mobility has collapsed since the 1958 birth date of the sample in that study
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/apr/25/socialexclusion.accesstouniversity
you can't measure intelligence.
that paper is full of qualifications and half made statements
mobility has collapsed since the 1958 birth date of the sample in that study
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mixed_biscuits
_________________________
Social mobility need not be 'high' - whatever that means - for it to be 'just': ie. for those who merit progression upwards to progress. This is what the paper I posted says, after all: those who have ability can make progress, whatever their station.
In the context from which the paper comes, your second objection doesn't come into it. Not that you have a good argument why intelligence cannot be measured. I've already explained how reasoning tests strongly predict success at intellectual tasks and can provide masses of evidence...Even from the analysis I have done of my own classes!
You're not an academic; find an academic paper that says this. Or provide plenty of evidence from your own reading...
Without thorough analysis both my paper and Droid's papers are TRUE. Thus the truth as a whole must comprise both of the papers' findings - it must be a synthesis. To prove either FALSE is not easy. Quibbling over 'social mobility' is a semantic issue as the papers have different ideas of what it means (the contradiction is only apparent).
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matt b
Indexing all opinion
Quickly:
"The frequency distribution of class trajectory (Fig. 1) shows that, for the
men, 39.5% of individuals are in the same class as their father, and 29.6% have gone upby one class. Much of this movement represents not so much individual social mobility as the general change in occupational structure of the British economy" p5
"It is statistically problematic to search for a general correlation between GA score
and class mobility" p6
"Of course, the significanceof the findings should not be overstated. The vast majority of variation in both attained class and class mobility is not accounted for by IQ" p10
And he cites Murray, which no sane academic would bother doing
I love it that when others post evidence, you get sniffy, but your abstract is PURE GOLD! Beautiful.
"The frequency distribution of class trajectory (Fig. 1) shows that, for the
men, 39.5% of individuals are in the same class as their father, and 29.6% have gone upby one class. Much of this movement represents not so much individual social mobility as the general change in occupational structure of the British economy" p5
"It is statistically problematic to search for a general correlation between GA score
and class mobility" p6
"Of course, the significanceof the findings should not be overstated. The vast majority of variation in both attained class and class mobility is not accounted for by IQ" p10
And he cites Murray, which no sane academic would bother doing
I love it that when others post evidence, you get sniffy, but your abstract is PURE GOLD! Beautiful.
scottdisco
rip this joint please
matt b
Indexing all opinion
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
I've got an even better idea: get out of your own class situation for a minute and find a ghetto somewhere. Take a look around. You will see that, not only do you not need an MBA or a degree in economics to make shitloads of money off people's misery, but that you don't even need to go to school to learn how!
The difference between the projects and Wall Street: skin color, dialect, not much else.
Grievous Angel
Beast of Burden
Nah, the restaurants on Wall St are much better. Well, they used to be anyway.
Are you fucking serious! I was going to quote him yesterday when talking about race. For fucks sake. If you don't know who he is Biscuits, he argued that effectively there was no racism. Same way you're arguing that class prejudice doesn't exist.
Am afraid I am too hungover to string together anything more coherent. My working class genes compelled me to go to the pub last night. It has defintely had a negative effect on my intelligence today
mixed_biscuits
_________________________
Playing Devil's Advocate was fun at first, but is beginning to feel a little pointless.
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
If the anagrams were made of names like LIL WAYNE and KANYE WEST my mother wouldn't get them but even the most "average" high schooler would. German spellings and prepositions elude even the very intelligent who are non-native speakers.
My father dropped out of high school, was probably just shy of qualifying special ed, but he is a mass and x-ray spectrometer repairman (one of about two in central NY), a certified electrician, was an inorganic chemist for a zinc company, and now he's a network engineer. He's probably smarter than I am, in a different way. Not the highest EQ in the world but he tries...
Anyway, enough with suborning nonsense. This thread is meh retarded. "There's no such thing as economics or politics just individduuals" thinking at its most obliviously and gloriously unaware. I thought Dissensus had exhausted the Bell Curve for good but it looks not.
comelately
Wild Horses
The point is that things have got worse, surely? Isn't that the synthesis of the two papers? That where an increase in managerial and technical workforce is needed, the floodgates will open to the intelligent in the lower classes? When it isn't, the gates are largely closed?
Is a corporate headhunter of a lower class than an accountant? Surely the idea that professional > managerial isn't as obvious as it once was? I wouldn't expect the teenage son of an accountant in 2009 to want to be an accountant - he might well want to be a Nathan, or a pro skateboarder, and might well get to be. Which is why I suspect that all this talk of 'social mobility' between 'one class' and 'another' feels like it's not really grasping the problem firmly.
Is a corporate headhunter of a lower class than an accountant? Surely the idea that professional > managerial isn't as obvious as it once was? I wouldn't expect the teenage son of an accountant in 2009 to want to be an accountant - he might well want to be a Nathan, or a pro skateboarder, and might well get to be. Which is why I suspect that all this talk of 'social mobility' between 'one class' and 'another' feels like it's not really grasping the problem firmly.
comelately
Wild Horses
Yes. I think class is an issue in Britain, but I think it's more about money and alienation.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
The only reason I can think of is that they're likely to have bigger vocabularies, on account of having been exposed to more books at home. Is that what you're getting at? In which case it's a bit like complaining that the high jump is biased towards tall people - well yes, of course it is, but...
Actually there's another possible explanation, which is that the answers are all things like SHIRAZ CABERNET as opposed to STELLA ARTOIS or whatever. Is this what you mean? I don't know what the answers are because (middle-class or not) it's practically impossible to unscramble anagrams like that when you have no idea how many words to make or what they mean. I'm pretty sure I never came across any test or question quite like that in the whole time I was at school - and even if some kids have to do them, I'm sure ultra-cryptic anagrams make up a small part of the overall syllabus compared to stuff like spelling, history, algebra, chemistry and so on. Are these all forms of 'middle-class knowledge' too?
There's no such thing as 'middle-class' or 'working-class' knowledge. There's just knowledge, which some children are more receptive to than others.
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matt b
Indexing all opinion
yep. And that m. class kids are more likely to have come across (cryptic) crosswords
It is also about access to knowledge, and what types of knowledge are favoured within the education system.
But, of course there are not m. class/w. class types of knowledge per se