Iranian democracy

vimothy

yurp
Furthermore, the Iranian regime considers itself to be the vanguard of Islamic resistance. What does it mean when that vanguard is out beating green-clad, allah-akhbar chanting students? What this does to Iran's international standing is as interesting (and hard to parse) as the internal effects.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
M seems to enjoy the support of the professional and middle classes - not to say only these classes, but rather that these classes seem hugely for him.

how true is this tho? surely that's the flipside of the "AN supported by rural poor" meme. not that it's not at least partially true.

anyway it wouldn't be the first time a police state has crushed middle-class dissidence against its own best interests.
 

vimothy

yurp
Padraig: don't know enough about Iran's economy to comment really, but liquidity = too much $ in circulation yes, leading to inflation (25% annually, IIRC), and thus to booming asset prices, which is great if you own a lot of property. Will dig round for some good analysis over the weekend.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Furthermore, the Iranian regime considers itself to be the vanguard of Islamic resistance.

but, I mean, this is delusional right? I'm under the impression that Iran (or its leaders) is widely disliked/mistrusted in the Arab world? to say nothing of Sunni/Shia bad blood. maybe on some issues, specifically Israel, but even there aren't the Egyptians/Hashemites in Jordan/even the Syrians well wary of them, to mention nothing of many Palestinians? and certainly they've meddled in Iraq but surely that's a regional more than an Islamic thing, or at least equally so.

tho I guess you're speaking about how the regime views itself, which is something else entirely.
 

vimothy

yurp
Probably it is delusional, yeah. But lets say that the Islamic Republic has a core constiuency inside Iran, but one outside as well (witnessed in its alliances, its rhetoric, its mythology, its appeal to a possibly imaginary ummah, etc). The exact characterisitics of that constituency are necessarily rather vague, and the dynamic at work here is hard to know, but still it is there.
 

josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
how true is this tho? surely that's the flipside of the "AN supported by rural poor" meme. not that it's not at least partially true.

The fact that the Basij is specifically targeting student dorms is indicative. Students tend, on the whole, to have wealthier parents, and I think it is fair to conjecture that the professional classes of major Iranian cities would find the actions of stick-wielding thugs foreign to their values. I note as well that there have a series of resignations at Iranian universities.

Ultimately, stick-wielders are fairly blunt instruments if you are trying to manage a modern state. They are effective at bashing things, but more complex administrative tasks tend to be beyond them. The educated middle classes staff schools, hospitals, courts, the media; in short, the machinery of government. What can the people who actually work for Press TV (The fucker Galloway excepted) be making of these scenes?
 

josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
In general, it seems to me that even if Iran is successful in (brutally) suppressing these protests, this action will have huge costs: Iran cannot return to normal after these events. Khamenei must be hoping now for dissipation, but in the event of a Basij bloodbath (and who really controls the Basij? They are functionally thugs...) splits will widen, not close.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
2 interesting things in that student Op-Ed

But Mr. Ahmadinejad is perceived here as being uniquely able to play the part of an Iranian Nixon by “traveling to the United States” and bringing along with him his supporters — and they are not few...In other words, Iranians believe they face a daunting choice: a disastrous domestic political situation with Mr. Ahmadinejad but an improved foreign policy, or improved domestic leadership under Mr. Moussavi but near impossible challenges in making relations with the United States better.

The reason for this fluidity in voter preference is simple. Iran has no real political parties that can command a fixed number of predictable votes. With elections driven primarily by personality politics, Iranians are always swing voters...Anything is possible because very little in politics or social life has been made systematic.

this one kinda reminds me of that French bloke that Vim talks about (Olivier something) & his notion about the Islamization of everything actually being a secularizing force.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
but, I mean, this is delusional right? I'm under the impression that Iran (or its leaders) is widely disliked/mistrusted in the Arab world? to say nothing of Sunni/Shia bad blood. maybe on some issues, specifically Israel, but even there aren't the Egyptians/Hashemites in Jordan/even the Syrians well wary of them, to mention nothing of many Palestinians? and certainly they've meddled in Iraq but surely that's a regional more than an Islamic thing, or at least equally so.

tho I guess you're speaking about how the regime views itself, which is something else entirely.

yeah, quite apart from shia/sunni divide, there's a fear that an Iran that really gets its shit together is a regional superpower waiting to happen. many assume the likes of SA, Egypt, Jordan would condemn an anti-nuke strike but privately welcome it
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
The fact that the Basij is specifically targeting student dorms is indicative. Students tend, on the whole, to have wealthier parents, and I think it is fair to conjecture that the professional classes of major Iranian cities would find the actions of stick-wielding thugs foreign to their values. I note as well that there have a series of resignations at Iranian universities.

well, a couple things.

students & universities are always at the forefront of this stuff - that doesn't mean that all the students are anti-regime. sorry to keep going back to Mexico but as that's what I know - at the UNAM (National University of Mexico), long a hotbed of leftist foment, there has always also been a large rightwing minority. in fact, many or at least some of the Basij are students, yes? certainly there are Basij chapters in the universities.

again, I think those in power are ultimately more interested in staying in power than worrying about who's going to run the hospitals/schools/courts etc once things have settled down. & I think it's a mistake, & potentially a costly one, to characterize the regime is a bunch of dim-witted, brutal stick wielders. there are, after all, guys giving the stick wielders their orders.

generally I think you're making unfounded assumptions about both the regime & "the professional classes of Iranian cities". no offense. & I don't have a better handle on it - I just don't think one can make such assumptions.
 
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josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
again, I think those in power are ultimately more interested in staying in power than worrying about who's going to run the hospitals/schools/courts etc once things have settled down.

I agree - but part of retaining control consists in keeping the organs of power (schools, courts, hospitals) in functioning order. The IRGC will lose a lot of power if it alienates civil society to the extent of castrating its institutions.

& I think it's a mistake, & potentially a costly one, to characterize the regime is a bunch of dim-witted, brutal stick wielders. there are, after all, guys giving the stick wielders their orders.

The regime itself is not stupid, but insofar as they side with the Basij in a brutal repression operation, it is the power of the stick-wielders that triumph, and become decisive to the continued furtherance of the regime. A devil's bargain.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
but clearly a big chunk, if perhaps not a majority, of Iranians legitimately support AN/IRGC/Khamenei. presumably some of them are of the professional class. neither one of us knows how many, nor does anyone else really. I guess it's a question of who exactly is being alienated, how they're being alienated, how divisive & bad that alienation is, what kind of offers at reconciliation are made in the near future, etc

there's also the question of peoples' self-interest, having to make a living & so on. frankly I'm mildly amazed that this has gone at such a high level for over a week w/o some kind of resolution. it could certainly be the case that following this there is simply a massive refusal to engage (as I mentioned a few pages back a la Palestinians in OT) but those kinds of these always wear out/are severely hampered by economic concerns, i.e. both of the Intifadas.
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
Saw Milne had a Guardian comment this morning and decided against reading it - you need to be in a mood for a laugh, or it'll just make you angry that the paper sullies its name by printing the clown.

How was it? Down to the usual standards?

And yes, Geras (I'm not a fan, btw) nails the joke. You'd think that a public school posh kid whose dad was BBC DG would have a little voice in the back of his head telling him leave off the snide remarks about "gilded youth", wouldn't you?

typically risible garbage that any one of us could comprehensively demolish without batting an eyelid.

you and Craner agree on something: Geras..
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
the War Nerd's surprisingly bad take on things

I know some people probably find M. Brecher appalling on general principles but I tend to appreciate his post-cynical amoralism for what it is. this time it's just more of that tired "pissed off rich kids angry at the mullahs" BS. 2 hilarious descriptions tho:

Khomeini "looked like...Dracula's mean uncle"

AN "dresses like a hungover Soviet janitor"
 

...

Beast of Burden
OT neoconservative intrigue, for those interested in such things: Michael Ledeen calls Danielle Pletka and Ali Afoneh "embarrassingly silly"! Does this have something to do with ML being shunted out of AEI last summer and taking his Freedom Chair over to Clifford D. May's Foundation For the Defense of Democracies, while Pletka stayed ensconced in a more streamlined and moderate AEI cocoon? Hey, who knows?

Edit: Some classic ML flexing at the end of his blog post:

As Obama discovered just today, America will be accused of meddling on behalf of freedom, even if we do nothing. And the accusation will have been true, in the most fundamental sense, even though the State Department raced to deny it. We are the symbol of freedom in the modern world, and those fighting for freedom against tyrants will intuitively invoke our name and our Constitution in their struggle. They are right, for the very existence of America threatens the legitimacy of the tyrants.

We meddle because we exist.
 
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...

Beast of Burden
In the region, it would launch a second Arab spring. The first in 2005 -- the expulsion of Syria from Lebanon, the first elections in Iraq and early liberalization in the Gulf states and Egypt -- was aborted by a fierce counterattack from the forces of repression and reaction, led and funded by Iran.

Yes, too many people forget the promise of 2005, and the destruction of it, also detailed in this unusually excellent Corner post:

Indeed, outside of Iraq and Afghanistan, Bush was more of a “realist” about democracy promotion than is commonly believed. His vaunted Middle East democracy project peaked in 2005, when Iraq held free elections, Egyptian president-for-life Hosni Mubarak agreed to do the same, Syria was forced to end its occupation of Lebanon, and reformers across the region appeared to be gaining momentum. The London Independent published a headline asking: “Was Bush right after all?” In June 2005, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told an audience at the American University in Cairo: “For 60 years, my country, the United States, pursued stability at the expense of democracy in this region here in the Middle East — and we achieved neither. Now, we are taking a different course. We are supporting the democratic aspirations of all people.”

But several months later, Egypt’s elections were disrupted by government thuggery, and the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood (an outlawed group) picked up dozens of parliamentary seats. The Mubarak regime soon initiated a new surge of repression. Meanwhile, Hamas won an election in the Palestinian territories, Hezbollah gained strength in Lebanon, and Sunni insurgents bombed the Shiite Golden Dome mosque in Samarra, Iraq, triggering horrific violence. The 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict dealt a further blow to Bush’s freedom agenda. By the time Secretary Rice visited Egypt in January 2007, the administration was much more concerned about stabilizing Iraq and countering Iran than it was about urging the Egyptian government to democratize. As the New York Times reported: “Ms. Rice, who once lectured Egyptians on the need to respect the rule of law, did not address those domestic concerns. Instead, with Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit by her side, she talked about her appreciation for Egypt’s support in the region.”

I remember all of this like it was yesterday, it was heartbreaking. And not just the Middle East, but Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Belarus...
 
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