Industrial Music

[franz]

it's funny because i kind of think of a lot of the proper experimental originators as being 'post-industrial' and usually reserve the term industrial for a lot of the more generic materials that ensue...

a lot of the key outfits like the aforementioned EN, TG, Coil, NWW, Current 93, etc. carry on in some form or other for decades and all have a pretty iconoclastic sound... as was mentioned earlier, it really starts to feel like a term of familial association rather than generic perse. in terms of that constellation... the names i don't think i've seen mentioned yet that are big for me are Zoviet France, HNAS, Organum and Hafler Trio... and particularly with Organum and Hafler you really are getting pretty far afield from what industrial seemed to stand for if you were defining it by what TG, EN and others were up to in the late 70s... but hey, if we can talk about Current 93 and Psychic TV...

and actually i really like the idea of speaking of all of this stuff in the context of post-industrial music because it keeps the definition really daft/dynamic...

other smaller cases that bear mentioning on the interesting side of things (not that i didn't obsess over EBM et. al. when i was 15...):

Mnemonists
p.16.d4 (old incarnation for mostly Ralf Wehowski's work)
Die Todliche Doris
DDAA

... and other stuff.

kind of wanna make a case for thinking of the Shadow Ring in that context, although it works sometimes better than others... super awesome band either way... I'm Some Songs is the album of there's that i'm thinking of the most...

one of my earliest respectable music obsessions... and still somewhat ongoing after all these years...

 

[Mr. Tea]

Has to be done, really:

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[drilla]

I think only one person's mentioned Skinny Puppy so far... everything they did in the 80s (and 1990) is pretty peak, excluding most of the Rabies album Al Jourgenson had a hand in. Unique sound design and vocal style (what i expect most people object to, but if you can get past it or even INTO it, you'll be musically richer)... lots of brutal FM synthesis and sample mangling. Listen to 1990's Too Dark Park for the hellish doppelganger of DM's Violator (maybe this is just in my head)

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[DannyL]

i think Coil were one of the most interesting of these bands. Psychic TV always seemed too much ideas to me (and I was never part of their live following in their heyday), but Coil seemed to just capture something really powerful in their first couple of releases. "How to Destroy Angels" is an amazing record, a pretty much perfect concept. The same with Horse Rotovator - incredible record - again, a perfect alignment of ideas with the music. They just managed to get it *right* in my book, expressing ideas and feelings subtly rather than parading them around... "The First Five Minutes After Death" - hearing that, and knowing that it might be about the consequences of AIDS on their circle of friends... there's something really powerful about that, absolutely floors me.
I can't remember which LP or recording it's on - I think Horse Rotovator? - but there's a voice recording of a a guy talking to Samaritians or a similar organisation about the suicide of a friend. Incredible to hear... it's not even music anymore, it's documentation of the human condition, I suppose.

They managed to do all this without relentless noise and screaming either - you can even hear a dnacefloor/disco element in some of their works - Marc Almond's influence maybe? Heaven in its 80s heyday? Related to this - they were one of the few of these bands who really *felt* acid house as well, I think - Psychic TVs experiments in this direction always sounded shite to me (despite various claims by Gen that he pretty much invented it) but something like Window Pane by Coil nails it and stick with their aesthetic.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Mornin', Dan.

Speaking of Coil and Marc Almond, I head this the other day:

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Christ, talk about DARK. Also resonates with what you were saying about the obvious hazards of being a gay man in the 1980s.

 

[drilla]

thirding the coil lurve.. I don't even think of them as industrial, or any genre... they are just Coil music, and it's really something. Spot on Dan.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I ought to get some of their early stuff, all I has is an (admittedly excellent) EP from the early '90s with a wicked acid house track on it and some nice weirdy ambient bits.

 

[john eden]

I can't remember which LP or recording it's on - I think Horse Rotovator? - but there's a voice recording of a a guy talking to Samaritians or a similar organisation about the suicide of a friend. Incredible to hear... it's not even music anymore, it's documentation of the human condition, I suppose. .

That's on "the dark age of love" and is apparently a friend leaving a message on their answerphone.

As you say Coil had a real focus - in the time they released Scatology/Rotorvator/LSD Psychic TV had released about 30 albums (1986-1991). For me pretty much all of those PTV albums had something worthwhile in them but they were clearly aimed at obsessives (like me).

 

[Diggedy Derek]

This various strands and identities of Industrial are interesting me more and more. Coil are an extraordinarily weird group, their drug and sex intake alone made The Stones or The Happy Mondays pale into insignificance. A lot of that early Foetus stuff (which is just him in his bedroom with a synth) is really good too, Steve Reich on a starvation diet.

I'm having problems realising the qualititive distinctions politically, though. what's the differences between TG's discussions of the holocaust, and, say, Boyd Rice, who was photographed with some really crazy right wing types?

As soon as you dig down into this, everyone uses the defence that they simply 'raise questions'. Even, like, your Death In Junes, aren't they 'just' imagining an alternative second world war?

It's a minefield. I think.

Is this too big a question to deal with on a short thread, through?

 

[mms]

Mornin', Dan.

Speaking of Coil and Marc Almond, I head this the other day:

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Christ, talk about DARK. Also resonates with what you were saying about the obvious hazards of being a gay man in the 1980s.

that was one of the first industrial records i heard and really liked, i discovered all this stuff from a guy in the town (who is now a teacher) who used to graffiti up the town with the pychic flag and words like 'your life is a tainted lie' and 'mission of dead souls' so naturally i wanted to chat to him and we'd go to the park and listen to tracks on his ghetto blaster, talk about music.

Coil really changed over time and were great then too, 'music to play in the dark' is perfect, 'constant shallwoness leads to evil', perfect.

 

[Client Eastwood]

This various strands and identities of Industrial are interesting me more and more. Coil are an extraordinarily weird group, their drug and sex intake alone made The Stones or The Happy Mondays pale into insignificance. A lot of that early Foetus stuff (which is just him in his bedroom with a synth) is really good too, Steve Reich on a starvation diet.

I'm having problems realising the qualititive distinctions politically, though. what's the differences between TG's discussions of the holocaust, and, say, Boyd Rice, who was photographed with some really crazy right wing types?

As soon as you dig down into this, everyone uses the defence that they simply 'raise questions'. Even, like, your Death In Junes, aren't they 'just' imagining an alternative second world war?

It's a minefield. I think.

Is this too big a question to deal with on a short thread, through?

Not at all, this is what I find very interesting.

But yeah, thanks for all the information. really usefull and ill get round to listening to some of the material online.

One this that has become apparent by reading tihs thread is throughout this scene there does seem to be a certain degree of socio-political, mental and spiritual ''re'-engineering'.

They seem to be coercing the listener down certain paths of thought. While the same can be said of most music but for someone who is reading about this for the first time I find this quite intriging that many of the bands align themself with big shots from various schools of thought be it left-right wing politics (though mostly right it seem), magical systems etc

The very word Industrail some sort of system behind the music. Some sort of goal. Perhaps it just refers to the tools used to make the sounds were industrial. Im guess im just thinking aloud . . .

 

[martin]

The very word Industrail some sort of system behind the music. Some sort of goal. Perhaps it just refers to the tools used to make the sounds were industrial. Im guess im just thinking aloud . . .

I think it comes from Industrial Records, which was meant to present itself as an 'honest' piss-take of record labels - hence calling albums "Second Annual Report", openly discussing additional financial activities (including the production of "piped music for factories") and presenting itself in a very corporate manner - a far cry from the 'fuck the music biz' posturing of fellow punks.

 

[john eden]

I'm having problems realising the qualititive distinctions politically, though. what's the differences between TG's discussions of the holocaust, and, say, Boyd Rice, who was photographed with some really crazy right wing types?

As soon as you dig down into this, everyone uses the defence that they simply 'raise questions'. Even, like, your Death In Junes, aren't they 'just' imagining an alternative second world war?

It's a minefield. I think.

Is this too big a question to deal with on a short thread, through?

I think this sort of discussion is inevitable (especially on here, where people are pretty switched on).

I think there are moral and poltical distinctions here.

Morally it seems pretty clear to me that TG and Laibach and others were adopting fascist imagery to raise issues and ultimately to critique totalitarianism. Certainly P-Orridge is complicated but he went on to become much more explicitly libertarian in the 80s (as in anti-authoritarian).

Whereas Boyd Rice has explicitly described himself as being "an occult fascist" and has developed an authoritarian philosophy ("might is right" etc).

On a political level there is a clear line to be drawn when people associate with actual fascist parties and activists. So Tony Wakeford being a member of the NF and appearing on albums like this: http://www.discogs.com/Various-No-Surrender/release/611025 is a complete no go.

Similarly Boyd Rice has appeared on Tom Metzger's "Race and Reason" cable TV show wanking on about how electronic music is "white" and how Current 93 are moving towards racialism. Metzger was head of the White Aryan Resistance at the time.

Rice and Death In June et al have inspired a new generation of bands who all waffle on about runes and Julius Evola and obscure fascist movements and philosophers. They seem entirely happy with that. There are a lot of grey areas, partly because a lot of it is adolescent posing, and partly because people realise that coming out as outright fascists is a bad PR move.

 

[john eden]

I think it comes from Industrial Records, which was meant to present itself as an 'honest' piss-take of record labels - hence calling albums "Second Annual Report", openly discussing additional financial activities (including the production of "piped music for factories") and presenting itself in a very corporate manner - a far cry from the 'fuck the music biz' posturing of fellow punks.

"Industrial" also refers to a new sort of music for the age of the production line, I think. From what I can remember there were ideas about Blues (and therefore rock n roll) hailing from a more rural setting - work songs in the fields etc.

 

[martin]

Quick edit - the below bit is largely NOT about the groups on Eden's 'approved' list earlier on

The ambiguity over fascism from a select segment of groups / artists is really retarded, one of the things that unfortunately attracts complete wankers to the 'scene'. I fail to see how any of it really critiques or provokes a re-thinking. I don't blame people for steering clear of it, to be honest. The usual counter-argument is that such people are blinkered, taking lyrics and slogans at face value - but why shouldn't they? How do you necessarily *get* when an artist is being ironic, especially when it's being done over waves of white noise?

Weirdly enough, whenever these groups were called on their stances, they were always happy to remain ambiguous about sexism and fascism - <i>ah ha, well you have to work that out yourselves - this is art, we're dealing with complexities here</i> - but once 'racism' was mentioned, they always went to great efforts to distance themselves from such accusations. Seemed they worked out exactly which line NOT to cross when keeping their distributor chains sweet.

As for why they remain ambiguous - how about selling records? I think people forget that years back, before they morphed into their current performance arty persona, Whitehouse used to attract loads of <i>serious nutters</i>. Stefan Jaworzyn once told me that, in the old Come Org days, the group used to receive completely deranged mail from people asking for Peter Sutcliffe's prison address, or banging on about how Europe needed new nazi death camps, etc. If Whitehouse had come out clean and admitted it was a prank, or ironic, or whatever, they'd possibly have lost some sales from these fruit and nuts.

Or maybe listening to someone screaming the lyrics "Buchenwald, garden of beauty, Ilse Koch" repeatedly over feedback, for 10+ minutes, really does make you reassess your opinions on the mass psychology of fascism and your belief in totalitarian structures. Go figure.

 

[john eden]

Good post, martin.

Reminds of Nigel Ayers' recent comments along the lines of "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck..."

Perhaps this stuff had some merit in the 1970s, I don't know. It's all been done to death since then, certainly.

 

[baboon2004]

Nurse with wound are a band that are always associated with industrial, althought they're not really are they, not like all the others here. I'm always suprised how much i enjoy the stuff by them i occasionally hear.
industrial types blergh.

this nurse with wound track sounds exactly like black dice

I quite like them. What would they and stuff like "7 Songs" by 23 Skidoo, Zoviet France etc be classed as?

 

[IdleRich]

"Die Todliche Doris"

Tell me more about this band. I remember hearing a track I liked but I've no idea what it was. Also, did their stuff come out on vinyl and is it hard to get? Cheers.

 

[DannyL]

For a really enjoyable read, and good insight into this stuff have a look at Lisa Crystal Carver's book "Drugs are nice". Good review on Jon's site (Jon, I still have your copy of this). She was partners to Boyd Rice for a while, and they had a son together. Because it's a very personal bit of writing, its not in any sense a haigography (whcih I think is a trap the other books on "the scene" fall into, inclduing the ReSearch publications). Pretty much the opposite in fact, Boyd comes out of it looking like a total piece of shit, and you realise what a complete facade all that "might is right" bollocks really is.

 

[bassbeyondreason]

I wouldn't personally lump Death in June in with Wakefield etc., seems to be a lot more of a fascination with thwarted/soured idealism and gay uniform fetishism rather than "might is right" posturing.
Not that I'm a fan though.