bravado or arrogance?
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You know why everyone should stop hating on Chipmunk? Because he's put the work in and now he is simply enjoying the fruits of that: 14 year olds buying his album. 14 year olds, yeah? That's who Chipmunk is "conversating" with now.
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
Chipmunks done quite a few good tunes, and aren't most MCs arrogant anyway? Goes with the territory dunnit?
mistersloane
heavy heavy monster sound
It's all Chipmunk was ever having a dialogue with! He was huuuuuuge in schools with his mixtapes, that's why the kids like him, because he was doing bars in his school uniform just like all the kids who wanted to be him.
CrowleyHead
Well-known member
This Chipmunk debate has sort of got me wondering... is there an evolution to the Wiley 'big-up' technique?
Work with me...
Wiley starts with Dizzee, grime's big ambassador to the greatest artistic potentials. He's lyrical, bright, opinionated, observant, etc.
From there, we move on to Stryder. Younger than Dizzee by about half a decade, but already beginning to accomplish things. He's got the lyrics of men twice his age, but the hunger than the so-called grown men who are 'heroes of the scene' (Nasty, Roll Deep) lack. So by the time he gets to be the age of his peers, he's actually above them in influence.
And from THERE, we move onto the Adenuga Bros. Skep is the ultimate typical grime MC, and his reputation as a lyrical yet street-mentality MC takes him to instant scene stardom. In a subtle way however, equally influential is JME. JME is young, though not as young as Stryder. He also becomes known for his 'honest' personality. JME is himself, he doesn't put on any sort of "Hood Persona". In that regard, he's got an ability Dizzee and Stryder don't... 'to be universal'. Whereas both of them sort of 'have' to talk from the perspective of the 'streets', JME doesn't feel any need to be 'that guy'.
Which leads us to Chipmunk. Chip, has, NOTHING to do with Grime in it's original form. But, he just rhymes about whatever. I mean, for millions of people, the first lines they hear him speak aren't "I was born and raised in the gutter", or "Some whore banging at your door what for". It's something as childish and yet, wonderfully refreshing as "I love music, baby!". As a result, grime MCs no longer have to be 'hard'. They don't have to 'Run The Road' for five minutes before turning into Kano. They don't have to even acknowledge 'the streets'. It's not a BAD thing, but the fact that there doesn't have to be that pressure is an absurdly nice revelation.
Obviously I can't believe Wiley had this plan in mind. But, just about EVERY ONE of the dudes he 'bigged up' managed to lead him to the next logical step. Though, I'm discounting Roll Deep and PAUG, because to fit them into this admittedly patchy theory, I'd lose sleep.
Work with me...
Wiley starts with Dizzee, grime's big ambassador to the greatest artistic potentials. He's lyrical, bright, opinionated, observant, etc.
From there, we move on to Stryder. Younger than Dizzee by about half a decade, but already beginning to accomplish things. He's got the lyrics of men twice his age, but the hunger than the so-called grown men who are 'heroes of the scene' (Nasty, Roll Deep) lack. So by the time he gets to be the age of his peers, he's actually above them in influence.
And from THERE, we move onto the Adenuga Bros. Skep is the ultimate typical grime MC, and his reputation as a lyrical yet street-mentality MC takes him to instant scene stardom. In a subtle way however, equally influential is JME. JME is young, though not as young as Stryder. He also becomes known for his 'honest' personality. JME is himself, he doesn't put on any sort of "Hood Persona". In that regard, he's got an ability Dizzee and Stryder don't... 'to be universal'. Whereas both of them sort of 'have' to talk from the perspective of the 'streets', JME doesn't feel any need to be 'that guy'.
Which leads us to Chipmunk. Chip, has, NOTHING to do with Grime in it's original form. But, he just rhymes about whatever. I mean, for millions of people, the first lines they hear him speak aren't "I was born and raised in the gutter", or "Some whore banging at your door what for". It's something as childish and yet, wonderfully refreshing as "I love music, baby!". As a result, grime MCs no longer have to be 'hard'. They don't have to 'Run The Road' for five minutes before turning into Kano. They don't have to even acknowledge 'the streets'. It's not a BAD thing, but the fact that there doesn't have to be that pressure is an absurdly nice revelation.
Obviously I can't believe Wiley had this plan in mind. But, just about EVERY ONE of the dudes he 'bigged up' managed to lead him to the next logical step. Though, I'm discounting Roll Deep and PAUG, because to fit them into this admittedly patchy theory, I'd lose sleep.
But all my mates used to do that!? I was in school when "Straight" first dropped..with shizzle/JME/them man all vocalling it, I used to beatbox & everyone used to huddle round while the MC's clashed, fun times, will never forget those, it used to attract a massive crowd, then when the teachers used to come over to see wah b, the MC's would start sending for em!! haha
viktorvaughn
Well-known member
I like the theory and probs for writing. Don't think dizzee is five years older than tinchy though. More like two?
CrowleyHead
Well-known member
Well, Dizz was what, 17, 18 when he dropped his Ice Rink, and Tinchy was around 13, no? I'd assumed they were close to the same date. Though I just looked at Wikipedia and it told me what you suggested. Maybe I got hit with a bit of mythmaking on the net...
viktorvaughn
Well-known member
I think there was a bit of myth making as he is so little and also his voice had broken so he did sound really young in those early days. So at that point Dizzee was probably 17 and Tinchy 15 (which is what wikipedia indicates as you say).
There is no mention of Ruff Squad on Tinchy's wiki page! That is shocking.
CrowleyHead
Well-known member
That's because there's no drama. With Roll Deep or NASTY, there was drama, not to mention an overabundance of stars. Ruff Squad... eh.
Aftershock suffers the same thing. Terror Danjah is a legend, but the MCs he works with in his camp aren't PHENOMENAL (though I maintain Badness is easily one of the best in the genre as far as versatility).
Still, to ignore Ruff Squad is kind of criminal.
I'm having trouble seeing how all of these acts are connected 'logically'. What is the trend here?
It's also pretty contentious to say that Wiley brought through JME and Skepta. By the time they were with Roll Deep they'd already managed to become big names in the scene off the back of Meridian, their productions, etc. At the end of the day, Boy Better Know was the main force behind the Adenugas' upwards momentum and Wiley played a very minimal part in that enterprise.
And let's not forget that Chipmunk was one of three of Wiley's proteges at the time, the other two being Little Dee and Ice Kid.
It's also pretty contentious to say that Wiley brought through JME and Skepta. By the time they were with Roll Deep they'd already managed to become big names in the scene off the back of Meridian, their productions, etc. At the end of the day, Boy Better Know was the main force behind the Adenugas' upwards momentum and Wiley played a very minimal part in that enterprise.
And let's not forget that Chipmunk was one of three of Wiley's proteges at the time, the other two being Little Dee and Ice Kid.
CrowleyHead
Well-known member
I'm not saying JME/Skepta would'nt have blown up on their own. But Meridian was essentially a small fish in the game, not unlike a Slew Dem (Yeah, Slew Dem have their own radio show, and had their movement. But would you put them up against say, Roll Deep?). Wiley's co-sign isn't anything really concrete, but his installing them as almost a 'sattelite' of Roll Deep with Boy Better Know sort of boosted them to the top. It's like how even though The Movement have yet to provide us with anything worthwhile, because Ghetto was in NASTY, they're of some attention.
However, of the other two Wiley proteges, Ice Kid was hampered by his relationship with Dot Rotten. Dot got skipped over for (which was stupid IMO, but whatever), and that's probably the real source of any beef with Wiley. As for Wiley, he focused more on Chip as Ice didn't really distance himself from Dot. And as for Little Dee, that kid got clashed apart like nothing. Chipmunk thankfully avoided clashes, because of the "Not Even Worth Time" effect. If Chip had made the mistake of clashing somebody, he wouldn't be in his position.
I don't really agree with any of this tbh
1. JME and Skepta were definitely big in the game before their Roll Deep affiliation. Skepta had already made huge waves with his productions like 'DTI' and 'Meridian Walk', and JME already had 'Serious' and 'Thuggish Ruggish' with D Double E. I'll agree that being affiliated with Roll Deep definitely gave them a bit more visibility but only because it allowed them to be on Rinse FM every Sunday. That's really as far as it went; count the number of Roll Deep tunes JME or Skepta have been on. Their achievements prior to Roll Deep + their achievements as Boy Better Know = virtually all of their net success now. I wouldn't say Boy Better Know was set up by Wiley as a "Roll Deep satellite" either. JME's big break was his three Boy Better Know mixtapes which Roll Deep had basically nothing to do with (they hardly even feature at all on the tunes, producers or MCs) and it was these that elevated both his and his crew's name. If anything, they put out one of WILEY'S albums. And they took one of Roll Deep's DJ's away from them!
Wiley is a satellite of Boy Better Know and I don't his stamp of endorsement was ever really needed for them, no less because his participation in Boy Better Know activities is virtually nil.
2. No one rates Ghetto because he was in NASTY, nor especially the Movement. While there's no doubt people got their introduction to Ghetto via NASTY, that fact is owed no credit for his recent achievements which were done entirely off the back of mixtapes and, well, being one of the most self-evidently sickest MCs in the game. Ghetto doesn't even say the word "NASTY" anymore, and hasn't for years. The Movement got attention because it was a crew that brought together a group of MCs who were all highly rated at the time (Scorcher, Wretch 32), and it just so happens they didn't really work very well together. Remember that Ghetto didn't even really blow up to what he is now until around the time of 'Ghetto Gospel' and the clash with Boy Better Know. Does this mean Ghetto is also a Wiley bring-in?
3. Your theory about Ice Kid is viable, and I don't doubt that some tension was created over him trying to be simultaneously in Eskibeat AND Hoodstars with Dot. The real problem with Ice though is that his work rate is abysmally low. He's lazy.
4. Little Dee didn't get clashed apart. He had a little clash with Dot that no one gave a shit about, Dot left O.G.'z and O.G.'z only got more successful. Now Little Dee is in a firm position in arguably the best up-and-coming crew in the whole game.
5. I totally agree though that if Chipmunk clashed anybody he'd be nowhere right now. Chipmunk didn't clash anybody though because I don't really think that's what Chipmunk was after. He (happily?) makes pop records now and has lost every shred of respect the grime scene once had for him. And Little Dee is in one of the sickest grime crews in the game.
6. Lastly, even though you already admitted this in your initial post, to discount Roll Deep from this theory is a bit iffy considering technically every member of Roll Deep is a Wiley bring-in. Flow Dan, for instance, is much more of a Wiley protege than JME or Skepta or arguably even Chipmunk ever were. He explained to him what "8 Bars" means for christs sake.
Sorry for the length! I like this topic.
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CrowleyHead
Well-known member
It's fair enough. As I said, this is a tenuous theory at best. There are millions of holes in it, this was just something I sort of 'realized'.
1) Though yes, Wiley's involvement in Boy Better Know is as minimal as can be, it does have some effect. For example, for better or worse, "Rolex Sweep" might've not happened had Wiley not been in the camp, which gave Skepta a 'phenomenon' moment. But the strength of Meridian, again, I have to compare to Slew Dem for some reason. To me, you've got some personalities... and then a lot of guys. It's not like RD or Nasty, where you can pluck the stars out like nothing. I concede, Boy Better Know aren't in any way DEPENDANT on Roll Deep (Honestly, Boy Better Know are a bit stronger than Roll Deep in certain ways.); however, we can both agree they've gained several benefits from the Wiley big-up.
2) I didn't mean to say Ghetto is famous because of a crew affiliation. But I basically agree with everything you say there.
3) Likewise
4) It actually also hurt him, because with OGz now, the focus has been eaten up by P Money. Yet again, there's somebody else simply overriding that potential start up. The clash may have not been important to say, us. But I think any sort of loss sets somebody back in the public's eye, even subliminally.
5) Again, pretty much the same page.
6) In the case of Roll Deep though, it's sort of... Nobody's ever pointed it out, but Wiley's sort of left Roll Deep to just do them. At the moment, I think Flow Dan's the 'stand-in', to keep them organized... which is why, they're not doing anything. Plus, I don't think that Wiley necessarily told Flow Dan, "Yo, put your little cousin who can't spit to a beat in." Unless Wiley was getting sick of writing for two MCs....
While Wiley's still the guy who put Roll Deep together, it also should be said that Roll Deep has a vibe of... for me personally, failed experiments. Roll Deep SHOULD have become like Nasty, where nearly everybody goes off and becomes a star. Like a Wu-Tang, which is who they're obviously modeled after... Except, aside from Dizzee, Wiley himself, Trim, Flow Dan, and Killa P... who in Roll Deep does ANYTHING!?!? In that scenario, including BBK's achievements to Roll Deep actually makes Roll Deep seem semi-accomplished. Even with those successes, that's a what... 50% rate? You still end up with so many MCs of varying talent just sitting around going "Yeah... I might drop a mixtape... next year..."
1) Though yes, Wiley's involvement in Boy Better Know is as minimal as can be, it does have some effect. For example, for better or worse, "Rolex Sweep" might've not happened had Wiley not been in the camp, which gave Skepta a 'phenomenon' moment. But the strength of Meridian, again, I have to compare to Slew Dem for some reason. To me, you've got some personalities... and then a lot of guys. It's not like RD or Nasty, where you can pluck the stars out like nothing. I concede, Boy Better Know aren't in any way DEPENDANT on Roll Deep (Honestly, Boy Better Know are a bit stronger than Roll Deep in certain ways.); however, we can both agree they've gained several benefits from the Wiley big-up.
2) I didn't mean to say Ghetto is famous because of a crew affiliation. But I basically agree with everything you say there.
3) Likewise
4) It actually also hurt him, because with OGz now, the focus has been eaten up by P Money. Yet again, there's somebody else simply overriding that potential start up. The clash may have not been important to say, us. But I think any sort of loss sets somebody back in the public's eye, even subliminally.
5) Again, pretty much the same page.
6) In the case of Roll Deep though, it's sort of... Nobody's ever pointed it out, but Wiley's sort of left Roll Deep to just do them. At the moment, I think Flow Dan's the 'stand-in', to keep them organized... which is why, they're not doing anything. Plus, I don't think that Wiley necessarily told Flow Dan, "Yo, put your little cousin who can't spit to a beat in." Unless Wiley was getting sick of writing for two MCs....
While Wiley's still the guy who put Roll Deep together, it also should be said that Roll Deep has a vibe of... for me personally, failed experiments. Roll Deep SHOULD have become like Nasty, where nearly everybody goes off and becomes a star. Like a Wu-Tang, which is who they're obviously modeled after... Except, aside from Dizzee, Wiley himself, Trim, Flow Dan, and Killa P... who in Roll Deep does ANYTHING!?!? In that scenario, including BBK's achievements to Roll Deep actually makes Roll Deep seem semi-accomplished. Even with those successes, that's a what... 50% rate? You still end up with so many MCs of varying talent just sitting around going "Yeah... I might drop a mixtape... next year..."
viktorvaughn
Well-known member
To be fair a few NASTY people haven't really done much - Armour, Stormin, Hyper, Monkee/Monkstar (OK he retired..), Demon (was he in nasty?) Sharkey Major has just done a come back tune hasn't he? Nasty Jacks done his ragga cd but he was a million times better 5 years ago just on grime (terribly underrated too, I think he's a great).
CrowleyHead
Well-known member
This is true.
Yeah, Shark is back now but you can hear his years out of the game in him. It's not the same guy.
I think the thing about the mega-crews like Roll Deep and NASTY is that they were perfect given how grime functioned and was structured back then. Those crews were built for pirate radio and raves and once the game started to become more about tracks and albums, being such large entities and therefore hard to quickly reinvent themselves, they were the first to fall during that difficult transition. Obv. this applies more to Roll Deep than NASTY since NASTY's demise was mostly the effect of in-fighting, but still few people came out with much to say afterwards.
Basically I don't think that it is any coincidence that the crews who are the most successful now are ones that have formed relatively recently. Boy Better Know has the potential to be what Roll Deep should have been and given that it seems they've extended their membership now to C-Gritz and Jammer it might not be long before we are looking at another much more effective mega-crew.
I think the thing about the mega-crews like Roll Deep and NASTY is that they were perfect given how grime functioned and was structured back then. Those crews were built for pirate radio and raves and once the game started to become more about tracks and albums, being such large entities and therefore hard to quickly reinvent themselves, they were the first to fall during that difficult transition. Obv. this applies more to Roll Deep than NASTY since NASTY's demise was mostly the effect of in-fighting, but still few people came out with much to say afterwards.
Basically I don't think that it is any coincidence that the crews who are the most successful now are ones that have formed relatively recently. Boy Better Know has the potential to be what Roll Deep should have been and given that it seems they've extended their membership now to C-Gritz and Jammer it might not be long before we are looking at another much more effective mega-crew.
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viktorvaughn
Well-known member
Does Maxi never do anything with Roll Deep anymore then?